From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Fri Dec 1 06:59:50 2023 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <2b019a53-8212-7cb1-69b2-f30331f33ec8@yandex.com> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote: > I am also concerned with loosing Google html search page but one for > duckduckgo.com exists. I include everyone in my message who could > benefit by any changes that increase accessability to all. ... but at the same time reduce security for all. You see, the information you keep in your email is not just your information, it is also mine and belongs to everyone else that has corresponded with the person that chose not to protect their email, and although I have no control over who you choose as your provider and the things that your provider can do with your email, you seems to be okay with having external people accessing information othe people gave you. This might be in confidence, or maybe sensitive. If all the emails in your account were your creation for your personal use it would be different, but your email contains information about others, which also needs to be protected from third parties. > Most of the people that I am working with that are having the most > problem are those using console line interface (CLI) and who often never > have a graphical interface (GUI) installed.? > Most have changed their email program to mutt but they very much miss > the features available in alpine like its address book and ability to > access newsgroups. I am sympathetic to the needs of people, especially people with disabilities. I might be one of them in the future. However, my security is more important to me than their wants. As you know David, there are ways to remove the password from the encryption key, making the encryption efforts useless. If someone does not want to follow the procedure to remove that password, that is on them, not on me. There are clear directions to do that. I will say one thing about the method Carlos posted to remove the password file. I was aware of this, and I have seen posts like this in the past. Alpine has the ability to remove this password too, and I have posted in the past how to do this. This means, there are two ways to remove the password from the encryption key, and I will modify Alpine to force everyone to have a password in the encryption key. Please do not misunderstand me, I did not say that I will force everyone to enter a master password, I said I will force the file to be be encrypted with a password, which either the user will know or that Alpine will know, but that key will have a password. Unfortunately, as always, the way this will work will be in the source code and hackers will be able to figure it out. Removing the password from the encryption key will force alpine to create a new key with a password only known to Alpine. Today you can transfer your password file from one machine to another and have it work smoothly in the other machine. I do not guarantee that this will be the case for those that choose to "remove" the password from the encryption key. > One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to > get an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old > version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed > the way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of > their email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail > and inside there they have to select the folder with the new email.? I am having a hard time understanding this. This seems like a configuration issue, not a Gmail issue. Are these people reading email by accessing it through a collection list? or do they read their email by configuring the inbox-path? (and maybe separately the collection list). If you need to skip [Gmail], add it to the collection list configuration. > It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a > switch much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass > file. I agree with you. This is not a technological requirement. It is a choice. Some people like me choose to make it mandatory, some people choose to use mutt instead, and some people choose to remove the password from the encryption key. We can all coexist in this world and make our choices. My choice does not force the choice of other people. I hope people that disagree with me choose to remove the password for the encryption key, not go to mutt, but that is their choice. After all removing the password from the encryption key will give them the experience they are looking for, and if they do not wish to do that, well, that is their choice too. -- Eduardo From n1ea at arrl.net Fri Dec 1 08:43:39 2023 From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> Message-ID: Yes, but that's a user solution. Most of the people affected by this Master Password problem are computer novices. They absolutely NEED a simple mail solution that works in text mode, that will open with a command, that will save their application specific password - or better yet, have a simple to use oauth2 solution - saved in a .pine-passfile file. Right now, most are sadly transferring to mutt from alpine with regrets because alpine they believe is easier to use, but the Master Password is a deal breaker. I have many people who trust me enough to give me their gmail password so I can get their application specific password, some are able to use teamviewer so I can perform the steps necessary to delete the master password to even run alpine, but this is very annoying and time consuming for both the users and (especially) myself. Regards, David Ring On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 7:09?PM Damion Yates wrote: > I mentioned using `openssl` earlier. The URLs from Carlos earlier in > the thread, explain that you can use openssl to blank that password and > then you don't have to type anything. > > > https://askubuntu.com/questions/1349401/how-to-remove-the-master-password-for-the-alpine-pine-e-mail-client > > https://comp.mail.pine.narkive.com/UcMK4NZG/suppress-master-password-prompt > > Looking at my shell history I can see I did this in June 2021 and never > looked back. > > It's roughly: > > ``` > cd ~/.alpine-smine/.pwd > mv MasterPassword.key MasterPassword.key.orig > openssl rsa -in MasterPassword.key.orig -out MasterPassword.key > ``` > > But review the URLs and maybe read `man openssl` as I might have missed > something. I /think/ but I'm not certain, that clearing the files in > .pwd/ will let you start alpine and get to pick another master password, > equally deleting the passfile. But as I don't really want to > repeat/replicate this right now (I'm still at work and it's gone > midnight here in London), you're on your own. > > Best wishes, > > - Damion > > On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote: > > > Hello Damion, > > > > Yes, lynx google.com works but lynx gmail.com does NOT work, it says > "use > > supported browser". > > You cannot use a single letter or blank master password with alpine, I > > tried many and finally got frustrated at a small password and entered > > "alphabet" and it was accepted. > > > > That's eight letters, I suspect that alpine will allow six letters. > > > > This is for every user, one more password to enter. It only stops > > someone from sitting at someone else's computer and typing in "alpine" > and > > reading their mail because in addition to the person's email password now > > the program is password protected. > > > > I live alone, my cat doesn't read email, she finds it boring. > > > > I will eventually forget my master password or I will go through the > > complicated for me process of removing the master password from this > > computer. I think certain folders have to be deleted under configuration. > > > > Regards, > > David > > > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 3:52?PM wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote: > >> > >>> I am also concerned with loosing Google html search page but one for > >>> duckduckgo.com exists. I include everyone in my message who could > >>> benefit by any changes that increase accessability to all. > >> > >> Is there some risk this will happen? I use `lynx google.com` with some > >> frequency and it still works. I've not heard about them trying to > >> remove html search. > >> > >> Full disclosure, I've worked at Google for almost 17 years. You may be > >> pleased to hear that it's full of command line loving UNIX nerds, some > of > >> whom use alpine though more who use mutt (there are dozens of us!). > >> > >> We also have blind googlers. > >> > >>> Most of the people that I am working with that are having the most > >>> problem are those using console line interface (CLI) and who often > >>> never have a graphical interface (GUI) installed. > >> > >> I envy you :) > >> > >>> Most have changed their email program to mutt but they very much miss > >>> the features available in alpine like its address book and ability to > >>> access newsgroups. > >> > >> Wait what? Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is > >> misunderstood that should be corrected. If it's the new master password > >> option, can't they live with just a single letter password like "f" ? > >> (on a home key so even useful for the blind). Or can't they blank the > >> password using `openssl` as suggested in this thread? > >> > >>> Some would like to use emacs and gnunews (spelling?). That's beyond my > >>> knowledge. > >> > >> Emacspeak used to be well known for cmdline blind users and gnus tied > >> into that giving blind users a good option. I believe the kludge that > >> mutt uses of a helper process for xoauth2 is compatible, but this is > >> technically complex. > >> > >>> One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to > >> get > >>> an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old > >>> version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed > >> the > >>> way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of > >> their > >>> email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail and > >> inside > >>> there they have to select the folder with the new email. > >> > >> Enabling xoauth2 is not that complicated, future proof and works > >> passwordless with the tokens stored by alpine. Alpine is better at this > >> than mutt. > >> > >> Enabling ASPs might work now but Google may want to deprecate them in > >> future as they have old-style access everything passwords. > >> > >> The internal mutt and alpine mailing lists at work (I run alpine-users@ > ) > >> discussed this when they moved to xoauth2 and we scrambled to solve > >> this. > >> > >> The UI changes in GMail often can be undone in settings, I'm not > >> familiar with what you're describing with a change in INBOX. But I do > >> know that the IMAP settings are quite advanced in the various styles you > >> can configure for how it works, like only serving the last 1,000 > >> messages per folder, or how delete/expunge works. > >> > >> I didn't know about the demise of the plain html version, but sadly > >> services which are free have to have some compromises as the world moves > >> on. Email is barely used by younger generations as it was a decade ago, > >> screen readers can cope with complicated graphical sites and no longer > >> rely on needing older plain html versions. > >> > >> I suspect 100s of people still using html were costing a lot in SWE > >> hours to maintain, vs billions of users using the latest versions they > >> keep releasing. > >> > >> When they broke flowed format text in the last update, I raised a bug > >> and it's been mostly ignored for 5 years :( > >> > >>> It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a > >>> switch much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass > >>> file. > >>> > >>> The default would continue to be as it is now but the user could > >>> decide to use the less secure method of accessing alpine if they > >>> wished. > >> > >> TBH I kinda agree that it's sensible to have some master password, pick > >> something easy, or learn/hack openssl to resolve this. > >> > >> - Damion > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n1ea at arrl.net Fri Dec 1 09:13:14 2023 From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <2b019a53-8212-7cb1-69b2-f30331f33ec8@yandex.com> References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> <2b019a53-8212-7cb1-69b2-f30331f33ec8@yandex.com> Message-ID: With the configuration people had been using for alpine, users now open alpine to a blank folder with no mail in it, I've told them to use the c key to change directory and then they see a new "Gmail" folder, they can now go there to find there mail, one man found hundreds of emails he didn't know existed. The steps required to remove the encryption key from alpine are too involved for many of the blind users who have been depending upon alpine to access email. Most of those I correspond with have moved on to mutt which doesn't have this problem. I have no idea how anyone could access email on a person's computer and access third parties information in the email delivered to a person. I also have no idea how an application master password prevents this, and I'm positive the people I help who know much less about computers than I do know even less about this. All they want is a way to read their email easily. They could use Thunderbird to access their email and other person's email would be on their computer, I don't see how this is any different than the emails downloaded by alpine. Thunderbird doesn't use an application master password, the only thing that has a password is the person's email accounts. Maybe I don't understand these things because I'm not a hacker - not implying that anyone who does understand them is a hacker - or someone with better training than myself. Carlos, maybe you are making alpine for ultimate email security, and for some users, I can see that being a wonderful thing, but there is a group dependent on the simple and effective way alpine used to work. They've been using alpine for years and they absolutely love it, but it's suddenly become too complicated for them to use because of this master password problem. About the new /Gmail folder when they are accessing email, is there a new .pinerc template available for them to use with gmail? I'll gladly tell them about this - and I will use it myself because if one could be produced it will eliminate the step where I was using alpine and seeing i had zero mail only to later discover that gmail had changed it's settings and that I (and others) had to press c to change folders and there was a new Gmail folder shown and now we have to go there to see our mail. Also some people are reporting that if they delete old mail, it doesn't get deleted by using alpine. I found this out myself with one person who trusts me and I accessed his gmail account using his .pinerc file with alpine and deleted hundreds of emails and then I used the gmail.com web page and used his regular - not appliction specific password and the emails that I deleted were all still there, hundreds of them. I believe the .pinerc file they're all using is a descendant of the one posted by the non abandoned Vinux for the blind Linux distribution from the UK. The best distro for accessibility right now is slint based on slackware. It also comes preconfigured with emacspeak which is a huge help because most people - including myself can never get emacspeak configured correctly in Debian. Thanks, David On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 9:59?AM Eduardo Chappa wrote: > > > One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to > > get an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old > > version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed > > the way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of > > their email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail > > and inside there they have to select the folder with the new email. > > I am having a hard time understanding this. This seems like a > configuration issue, not a Gmail issue. Are these people reading email by > accessing it through a collection list? or do they read their email by > configuring the inbox-path? (and maybe separately the collection list). If > you need to skip [Gmail], add it to the collection list configuration. > > > It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a > > switch much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass > > file. > > I agree with you. This is not a technological requirement. It is a choice. > Some people like me choose to make it mandatory, some people choose to use > mutt instead, and some people choose to remove the password from the > encryption key. We can all coexist in this world and make our choices. My > choice does not force the choice of other people. I hope people that > disagree with me choose to remove the password for the encryption key, not > go to mutt, but that is their choice. After all removing the password from > the encryption key will give them the experience they are looking for, and > if they do not wish to do that, well, that is their choice too. > > -- > Eduardo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason-alpine-info at shalott.net Fri Dec 1 12:43:59 2023 From: jason-alpine-info at shalott.net (jason-alpine-info@shalott.net) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <2b019a53-8212-7cb1-69b2-f30331f33ec8@yandex.com> References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> <2b019a53-8212-7cb1-69b2-f30331f33ec8@yandex.com> Message-ID: > I will say one thing about the method Carlos posted to remove the > password file. I was aware of this, and I have seen posts like this in > the past. Alpine has the ability to remove this password too, and I have > posted in the past how to do this. This means, there are two ways to > remove the password from the encryption key, and I will modify Alpine to > force everyone to have a password in the encryption key. Can I ask what the specific threat model is that this step is meant to combat? An attacker with local root doesn't need to care about any disk encryption; he can read your decrypted master key and the plaintext of your IMAP passwords directly from memory. And of course a local attacker who doesn't have root can be guarded against simply with filesystem permissions. So I think that the only attack that disk encryption defends against is the one where an attacker has physical access to your disk while the host is off. (Which is perhaps a realistic attack against someone travelling with a laptop, but is probably not an especially high risk for most home users working at their desktops?) But in that case, the attacker also has access to the plaintext of the Alpine binary and config files, and so could trivially re-derive Alpine's internally-generated key. So I'm not clear what specific attacks such a measure would be meant to combat. More importantly, security-conscious users are probably already using full-disk encryption (especially for laptops). And in that case, forcing an extra layer of per-application crypto on to them doesn't seem like it serves much purpose. I think that it makes a ton of sense to have Alpine default to using its own strong crypto. But it should also be possible for sophisticated, security-conscious users to make their own decisions in this regard. I don't think it's a good idea for software to get into a combative relationship with its users... I do agree that sometimes it is justified to force security measures on users in cases where it substantially improves the security stance of the internet at large. But I don't think that the current issue is one of those cases. Thanks. -Jason From andrew at aitchison.me.uk Fri Dec 1 23:13:05 2023 From: andrew at aitchison.me.uk (Andrew C Aitchison) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> <2b019a53-8212-7cb1-69b2-f30331f33ec8@yandex.com> Message-ID: <7974155c-eac3-5284-37ec-344844630362@aitchison.me.uk> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023, jason-alpine-info@shalott.net wrote: >> I will say one thing about the method Carlos posted to >> remove the password file. I was aware of this, and I have >> seen posts like this in the past. Alpine has the ability >> to remove this password too, and I have posted in the past >> how to do this. This means, there are two ways to remove >> the password from the encryption key, and I will modify >> Alpine to force everyone to have a password in the >> encryption key. > > Can I ask what the specific threat model is that this step > is meant to combat? If I understand correctly, the threat is that a rogue web script can upload the password file and decrypt it at leisure. > An attacker with local root doesn't need to care about any > disk encryption; he can read your decrypted master key and > the plaintext of your IMAP passwords directly from memory. > And of course a local attacker who doesn't have root can be > guarded against simply with filesystem permissions. For a remote attacker that has gained shell-level access to the user account, uploading a file is easier than finding the password in the memory of a running process - and that only works if alpine is currently running. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sat Dec 2 15:00:21 2023 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> D.J.J. Ring, Jr. said on Fri, 1 Dec 2023 11:43:39 -0500 >Yes, but that's a user solution. Most of the people affected by this >Master Password problem are computer novices. > >They absolutely NEED a simple mail solution that works in text mode, >that will open with a command, that will save their application >specific password - or better yet, have a simple to use oauth2 >solution - saved in a .pine-passfile file. > >Right now, most are sadly transferring to mutt from alpine with regrets >because alpine they believe is easier to use, but the Master Password >is a deal breaker. Am I reading this whole thread right? People are switching email clients, jumping through all sorts of hoops, and having panic attacks so they can work with Gmail? If that's so, the problem isn't Alpine or disabilities, it's Gmail. Google keeps making their email more and more difficult, I think in order to kill email so they can insert themselves proprietarily in some kind of "social media". If I'm correct that this mess is all about Gmail, there's an easy solution: Ditch Gmail. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From damion.yates at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 18:29:01 2023 From: damion.yates at gmail.com (Damion Yates) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Saturday, December 2, 2023, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Am I reading this whole thread right? No? > People are switching email > clients, jumping through all sorts of hoops, and having panic attacks > so they can work with Gmail? If that's so, the problem isn't Alpine or > disabilities, it's Gmail I think you've misunderstood the thread. An update to alpine added a master password and this version landed with the various distributions packaging recently. People are losing their s**t over that and panicking and switching clients! IMAP via most ISPs, Hotmail, yahoo, Gmail etc all use passwords so having a master password to cache these so it can decrypt the secrets necessary for alpine to connect to those is sensible. The technique to avoid/disabled this is too complicated for novice users or those with difficulty using computers like the blind, so they are asking for help. The best solution is probably to tie into a system keychain, win/mac/KDE/gnome all support this and can unlock access to alpine based on a user's login in at the start of their session. HTH, - Damion -- Damion Yates - damion.yates@gmail.com London, England -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nico.mock at posteo.de Sun Dec 3 04:59:42 2023 From: nico.mock at posteo.de (Nico Mock) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] number of messages, collection list not inbox Message-ID: Dear all, i guess this is my first post to this mailing list. I spent a couple of days now to get back to my user experience when i was a student. Many thanks to all of you keeping alpine up ;-) My setup: I've set up two inboxes and two different collection lists. Using Rules/Filters I move some of the stuff in my inboxes to folders/directories of my collection list. I'm still not sure about exactly when this is happening like when opening the inboxes .... Behind the name of the inboxes two numbers (2/123) are shown to inform me about new messages or about the total number of messages. This is nice. Since the filters move new messages to my collection list folders, is there a way to get those numbers behind the names of my collection list folders, too ? Many thanks in advance, Nico From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it Sun Dec 3 13:10:05 2023 From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Steve Litt wrote: > Am I reading this whole thread right? People are switching email > clients, jumping through all sorts of hoops, and having panic attacks > so they can work with Gmail? If that's so, the problem isn't Alpine or > disabilities, it's Gmail. I am not following the thread in depth. My personal concern would be mainly for gmail (Gsuite), but possibly the thread was mixing (or emphasizing) also other issues, as pointed out by others. >> but the Master Password is a deal breaker. I am still using Alpine 2.21 "all patch" on my work machine, so I have not encountered this issue yet, but I guess when I upgrade I will look into a way of disabling Master Password (since I usally, though seldom, build Alpine from source I think taht would not ber difficult). > If I'm correct that this mess is all about Gmail, there's an easy > solution: Ditch Gmail. I would be glad to do it. Unfortunately that's not always possible. For instance my main e-mail address is my institutional one, and since some 5 years we moved from homegrown sendmail to Gsuite, so my solution was to *circumvene* gmail. (BTW I note that gmail authentication issues are being discussed in technical mailing list of forums like fetchmail and Epyrus (Pale Moon)) My arrangement so far has been to use fetchmail as described here http://sax.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/WWW/WhereManWins/gs.html. - First of all I used to store all my-email locally on my work machine. When travelling I could activate a local IMAP server and use alpine on a laptop to access it. Now that I'm mainly at home, I ssh to the work machine and work from there. - I also had a lot of procmail ruls which used to process incoming mail and sort it out into folders. - to mantain that, I use fetchmail to poll the Gsuite inbox every 5 min, so mail is "delivered" locally and I can work exactluy as before (I also poll a secondary "civic network" POP avout twice per day. I would not trust using it for a heavy e-mail traffic though) - I use alpine *directly* to access Gsuite in three cases *only*: a) occasionally to get at Gsuite inbox if I want to see something faster than 5 minutes b) daily to check false positives in Gsuite Spam (unfortunately it has more than our previous homegrown Spamassassin) c) daily to purge Gsuite Bin (I do not like keeping stuff there permanently; fetchmail is instructed to "retrieve and delete" but for Gsuite "delete" means "move to Bin" - I virtually never use Gmail web interface (the simple HTML one), I guess once in five years, this summer when our work machines were switche off for maintenance I am quite concerned about the moves of gmail moving away from IMAP sometimes next year. I am seeking solutions ... - in principle I should be able to run a sendmail on my home machine, but this is not compatible with my cheap and simple connection (a router with a SIM, and no public IP, since it is behind CGNAT) - I have been told I could get a VPS, and install there my sendmail and IMAP. Not sure of reliable providers, costs and effort. - or perhaps I could find a local (free or cheap) provider (I used once one for tests) which supports plain IMAP, and instruct Gsuite to route all my mail there (and get via fetchmail, unchanged) From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Sun Dec 3 14:39:47 2023 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: > [...] > I am quite concerned about the moves of gmail moving away from IMAP > sometimes next year. I am seeking solutions ... IMAP will continue to be supported by Gmail, what will not be supported is that you use username/password authentication. Instead you will have to set up Oauth2, which you can do with Alpine. I recommend that you upgrade to the latest version of Alpine, which has the best Oauth2 support. I hope this helps. -- Eduardo From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sun Dec 3 15:27:59 2023 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> References: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> Message-ID: <20231203182759.0fcb4bf0@mydesk.domain.cxm> Eduardo Chappa said on Sun, 3 Dec 2023 15:39:47 -0700 (MST) >On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: > >> [...] >> I am quite concerned about the moves of gmail moving away from IMAP >> sometimes next year. I am seeking solutions ... > >IMAP will continue to be supported by Gmail, what will not be >supported is that you use username/password authentication. Instead >you will have to set up Oauth2, which you can do with Alpine. Can Fetchmail do oauth2? Does any Fetchmail substitute (getmail, for instance) do Oauth2? If not, this dispossesses people like me, who download email messages independently of their email client. So once again I ask, if you have the power to make the decision, do you really want to jump through all the hoops Gmail puts in front of you? SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From andrew at aitchison.me.uk Sun Dec 3 21:36:17 2023 From: andrew at aitchison.me.uk (Andrew C Aitchison) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] fetchmail and oauth2 - was Re: Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <20231203182759.0fcb4bf0@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> <20231203182759.0fcb4bf0@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Steve Litt asked: > Can Fetchmail do oauth2? Literally yes, though you need either developmental version 7, or third-party patches for version 6. However Matthias Andree has not been as successful as Eduardo in finding a way through the hoops to make it work with particular providers and has given up on the politics, threatening to remove oauth2 from the development version. > Does any Fetchmail substitute (getmail, for instance) do Oauth2? Getmail 5.6 https://www.bytereef.org/howto/oauth2/getmail.html Getmail6, which IIRC is a fork of getmail, not a new version: https://getmail6.org/configuration.html https://shallowsky.com/blog/tech/email/gmail-api-oauth2.html suggests that the getmail-gmail-xoauth-tokens script used above can be used independently of getmail, so it might be the way to get fetchmail through some of the hoops. I haven't tried it, but https://github.com/simonrob/email-oauth2-proxy is supposed to interpose between an OAuth2 MTA and a non-OAuth2 MUA. > If not, this dispossesses people like me, who download email messages > independently of their email client. > > So once again I ask, if you have the power to make the decision, do > you really want to jump through all the hoops Gmail puts in front of > you? GMail is not my main email account, so I can avoid all these issues by getting gmail to forward my email to my main account. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From damion.yates at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 03:16:22 2023 From: damion.yates at gmail.com (Damion Yates) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <20231203182759.0fcb4bf0@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> <20231203182759.0fcb4bf0@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 11:28?PM Steve Litt wrote: > Eduardo Chappa said on Sun, 3 Dec 2023 15:39:47 -0700 (MST) > > >On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: > > > >> [...] > >> I am quite concerned about the moves of gmail moving away from IMAP > >> sometimes next year. I am seeking solutions ... > > > >IMAP will continue to be supported by Gmail, what will not be > >supported is that you use username/password authentication. Instead > >you will have to set up Oauth2, which you can do with Alpine. > > Can Fetchmail do oauth2? Does any Fetchmail substitute (getmail, for > instance) do Oauth2? Yes. Also I use offlineimap which syncs back and forth to a local Maildir folder structure. This is compatible with many clients but also allows you to use a local imap daemon which can be faster for access (caching, indexing for searching speedups etc). I use the Maildir patches for alpine as this is slightly faster than direct IMAP access it also doesn't need you to auth with anything, as offlineimap is doing that. HTH, - Damion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.listas at telefonica.net Mon Dec 4 05:24:27 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> <2b019a53-8212-7cb1-69b2-f30331f33ec8@yandex.com> Message-ID: <32d20127-43aa-a68f-a176-768f127738af@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-12-01 a las 12:43 -0800, jason-alpine-info@shalott.net escribi?: >> I will say one thing about the method Carlos posted to remove the password >> file. I was aware of this, and I have seen posts like this in the past. >> Alpine has the ability to remove this password too, and I have posted in >> the past how to do this. This means, there are two ways to remove the >> password from the encryption key, and I will modify Alpine to force >> everyone to have a password in the encryption key. > > Can I ask what the specific threat model is that this step is meant to > combat? For example, a person that has (temporary) access to the machine, can open Alpine and read the mail; likely also write and send email. This can be used to get access to a bank account or to purchases. In the read emails there can be private information of other people that they sent to you, in confidence. An identity could be stolen. Depending on software, they might read the mail accounts passwords, and with that, go away and access your email from their home. Possibly there is nobody in the premises with physical access to your machine, but you never know, if you get visitors. Or your machine could break down, and you may have technical service having a look at it. That said, software like Thunderbird has the master password as optional. Obviously, I set it up, but some (many?) people don't. Also once I open and enter the password to Alpine or Thunderbird, the application will be open for (many) days, not asking for the password again. The only protection is the desktop user password (when the screen saver kicks in). There is other software that has mail passwords in plain text files (postfix, for instance). it is a daemon, it can not ask for user interaction. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZW3TCxwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVnREAnRM+TgYs75z4ylZ1TcR9 w3SPLUrDAJwLxVOfr93LKSehfeoPheqUJ/ZySQ== =7THh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From robin.listas at telefonica.net Mon Dec 4 05:26:57 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> <2b019a53-8212-7cb1-69b2-f30331f33ec8@yandex.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-12-01 a las 12:13 -0500, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. escribi?: ... > Carlos, maybe you are making alpine for ultimate email security, and for some users, I can see that being a wonderful > thing, Er... No, I don't make Alpine. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZW3ToRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVnL4An0W/o4unyZEJPPT9zuyb 3TngASVkAJ4sHyAtZDW5hMNGrkeeq9QFVc3LoQ== =zDyr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From robin.listas at telefonica.net Mon Dec 4 05:42:14 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Alpine IMAP Support: was Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <20231130205434.29620721@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> <20231130205434.29620721@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <6e0c8161-75df-e380-b4db-199a4aeb308a@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-11-30 a las 20:54 -0500, Steve Litt escribi?: > damion.yates@gmail.com said on Thu, 30 Nov 2023 20:52:25 +0000 (GMT) > >> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote: > >> Wait what? Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is >> misunderstood that should be corrected. > > Is this good IMAP support something new? Alpine supports IMAP since ever, AFAIK. > In 2013, and maybe 2018 and > 2020, I tried getting Alpine working, on my Daily Driver Desktop, with > the Dovecot IMAP server on my Daily Driver Desktop. I don't remember > the details, but it pulled up very few of my folders from Dovecot. > Maybe those folders weren't subscribed, but Claws-Mail and Evolution > pulled up the right folders easily. I use Alpine with Dovecot for years, in several computers, no problems. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZW3XNhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVaK0AnRYYca1QEB8xCHJRY4F+ ++2Kun1sAKCAYw8pqsdkyqakrCslM2O/pSqpaA== =Xab6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barrylandy at cantab.net Mon Dec 4 05:53:16 2023 From: barrylandy at cantab.net (Barry Landy) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Alpine IMAP Support: was Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <6e0c8161-75df-e380-b4db-199a4aeb308a@telefonica.net> References: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net> <20231130205434.29620721@mydesk.domain.cxm> <6e0c8161-75df-e380-b4db-199a4aeb308a@telefonica.net> Message-ID: yes Alpine has supported IMAP since forever. Was introdduced (by Mark Crispin OBM, the author of IMAP) in PINE (Alpine's predecessor) On Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote: :>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- :>Hash: SHA1 :> :> :> :>El 2023-11-30 a las 20:54 -0500, Steve Litt escribi?: :>> damion.yates@gmail.com said on Thu, 30 Nov 2023 20:52:25 +0000 (GMT) :>> :>> > On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote: :>> :>> > Wait what? Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is :>> > misunderstood that should be corrected. :>> :>> Is this good IMAP support something new? :> :>Alpine supports IMAP since ever, AFAIK. :> :>> In 2013, and maybe 2018 and :>> 2020, I tried getting Alpine working, on my Daily Driver Desktop, with :>> the Dovecot IMAP server on my Daily Driver Desktop. I don't remember :>> the details, but it pulled up very few of my folders from Dovecot. :>> Maybe those folders weren't subscribed, but Claws-Mail and Evolution :>> pulled up the right folders easily. :> :>I use Alpine with Dovecot for years, in several computers, no problems. :> :>- -- Cheers :> Carlos E. R. :> :> (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) :> :>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- :> :>iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZW3XNhwccm9iaW4ubGlz :>dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVaK0AnRYYca1QEB8xCHJRY4F+ :>++2Kun1sAKCAYw8pqsdkyqakrCslM2O/pSqpaA== :>=Xab6 :>-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 Mobile +44-7771-933945 Cambridge CB4 3PB England Email BarryLandy@cantab.net -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Alpine-info mailing list Alpine-info@u.washington.edu http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it Mon Dec 4 12:20:03 2023 From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> References: <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Damion Yates wrote: > Lucio Chiappetti wrote: >> I am quite concerned about the moves of gmail moving away from IMAP >> sometimes next year. I am seeking solutions ... > Sorry what?! So you have a reference to this notice? I might have misinterpreted what I read on the fetchmail mailing list, which I include here F> Seems that Google have defined the total phase out: F> https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2023/09/winding-down-google-sync-and-less-secure-apps-support.html F> F> seems that 'app password' still will be supported: F> F> https://knowledge.workspace.google.com/kb/how-to-generate-an-app-passwords-000009237?hl=en On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Eduardo Chappa wrote: > IMAP will continue to be supported by Gmail, what will not be supported is > that you use username/password authentication. Instead you will have to set > up Oauth2, which you can do with Alpine. I recommend that you upgrade to the > latest version of Alpine, which has the best Oauth2 support. Thanks Eduardo, but as I said my usage of Alpine+Gsuite is for "occasional maintenance" (once per day or less, for cleanup). My main delivery agent is fetchmail, which allows to work with all my old extensive set of procmail rules "as if I were receiving directly". And the use Alpine "locally". BTW some of those procmail rules do deal automatically with some form-generated messages to update some institute database as a service for my institute. Renouncing to them would be a real pain. I would not be happy to compile fetchmail from source (I use the OS-bundled version). Also it is not clear to me whether a crontab-invoked fetchmail (or replacement) can use Oauth2. Probably yes. I am very ignorant of Oauth2, which I suffered as a nuisance (I have an oauth2 txt file generated years ago which I use in conjunction with GAM (the Gsuite administration line mode interface) and that is invoked by a crontab script (essentially to verify a list of addresses is set up). That's why I ask here, where there are competent and kind persons without vested interests. I always use GAM from a single machine (my work machine, which has a static permanent public IP). I ignore how it links with Oauth2 unless it is simply because the file resides in the same directory as the executable. Considering instead using Oauth2 (e.g. with Alpine) from different machines, or from a dynamic CGNAT private IP, as if it would be the case if I'd use my home machines (which currently do not do, byt maybe will do sometimes), will the "Oauth2 txt file" (or key, or whatever is called) be locked to a static IO, or a MAC address, or be "portable" ? Sorry for the naive questions. And thanks to whoever replies anyhow ... From robin.listas at telefonica.net Mon Dec 4 15:33:53 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> Message-ID: <4e6dc4c6-7e43-4ccf-a7ec-e8c4cde8d88a@telefonica.net> On 2023-12-04 21:20, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: > On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Damion Yates wrote: > >> Lucio Chiappetti wrote: >>> I am quite concerned about the moves of gmail moving away from IMAP >>> sometimes next year. I am seeking solutions ... > >> Sorry what?!? So you have a reference to this notice? > > I might have misinterpreted what I read on the fetchmail mailing list, > which I include here > > F> Seems that Google have defined the total phase out: > F> > https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2023/09/winding-down-google-sync-and-less-secure-apps-support.html > F> > F> seems that 'app password' still will be supported: > F> > F> > https://knowledge.workspace.google.com/kb/how-to-generate-an-app-passwords-000009237?hl=en This means: ?Beginning September 30, 2024: third-party apps that use only a password to access Google Accounts and Google Sync will no longer be supported? That's all. There is nothing said there about phasing out imap, or phasing out application passwords. What they are phasing out is access with the main google login and password unless you use Oauth2. Or application passwords. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mepstein at illinois.edu Mon Dec 4 20:00:54 2023 From: mepstein at illinois.edu (Milt Epstein) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] fetchmail and oauth2 - was Re: Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: <20231202180021.08c052bb@mydesk.domain.cxm> <92701a16-0bf5-ac76-ebb8-68390c6ff1c2@yandex.com> <20231203182759.0fcb4bf0@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Andrew C Aitchison wrote: > On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Steve Litt asked: > > > Can Fetchmail do oauth2? > > Literally yes, though you need either developmental version 7, > or third-party patches for version 6. > However Matthias Andree has not been as successful as Eduardo in finding > a way through the hoops to make it work with particular providers > and has given up on the politics, threatening to remove oauth2 from > the development version. [ ... ] I've found this page useful for setting up fetchmail to do oauth2: https://mmogilvi.users.sourceforge.net/software/oauthbearer.html It has info for setting it up to work with both gmail and office365, although the info for gmail is more complete. (This page is easily found if you search on "fetchmail oauth2".) Milt Epstein mepstein@illinois.edu From nico.mock at posteo.de Fri Dec 8 05:33:28 2023 From: nico.mock at posteo.de (Nico Mock) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] number of messages, collection list not inbox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39e0c947-af72-d17f-c1ac-bef87fa622e1@posteo.de> no one ? On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > Dear all, > > i guess this is my first post to this mailing list. I spent a couple of days > now to get back to my user experience when i was a student. Many thanks to > all of you keeping alpine up ;-) > > My setup: I've set up two inboxes and two different collection lists. Using > Rules/Filters I move some of the stuff in my inboxes to folders/directories > of my collection list. I'm still not sure about exactly when this is > happening like when opening the inboxes .... > > Behind the name of the inboxes two numbers (2/123) are shown to inform me > about new messages or about the total number of messages. This is nice. > > Since the filters move new messages to my collection list folders, is there a > way to get those numbers behind the names of my collection list folders, too > ? > > > Many thanks in advance, > > Nico > > > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > > From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it Fri Dec 8 14:47:34 2023 From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] number of messages, collection list not inbox In-Reply-To: <39e0c947-af72-d17f-c1ac-bef87fa622e1@posteo.de> References: <39e0c947-af72-d17f-c1ac-bef87fa622e1@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > no one ? Sorry, al least me, I missed the original message > On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: >> My setup: I've set up two inboxes and two different collection lists. Local or remote collection lists ? Personally I have 3 inboxes of which 2 are transient(*) and 2 other local incoming folders (**), and a number of collection lists, all local but one. This might be an anomalous usage ... (*) one IMAP and one POP, offloaded to the local inbox periodically via fetchmail. (**) populated by procmail. I have a few other procmail rules which sort SOME messages in some specific folders of the collection lists, but most of my messages are archived manually in the various folders. Note I favour procmail rather then alpine filters to sort messages in folders (procmail acts immediaely when mail is received) >> Behind the name of the inboxes two numbers (2/123) are shown to inform >> me about new messages or about the total number of messages. Yes that's correct. It is displayed for my local inbox, my remote IMAP inbox, and the local incoming folders. It is displayed for the remote POP folder ONLY I have previously accessed it. >> Since the filters move new messages to my collection list folders, is >> there a way to get those numbers behind the names of my collection list >> folders, too ? I don't think so. I believe thse numbers are displayed only for the folders which are declared incoming folders. Am I wrong ? From nico.mock at posteo.de Sat Dec 9 05:24:52 2023 From: nico.mock at posteo.de (Nico Mock) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] number of messages, collection list not inbox In-Reply-To: References: <39e0c947-af72-d17f-c1ac-bef87fa622e1@posteo.de> Message-ID: Hi Lucio, many thanks for your reply .... On Fri, 8 Dec 2023, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: > On Fri, 8 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > >> no one ? > > Sorry, al least me, I missed the original message never mind ... it is awsome that people answer my questions ;-) > >> On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > >>> My setup: I've set up two inboxes and two different collection lists. > > Local or remote collection lists ? > > Personally I have 3 inboxes of which 2 are transient(*) and 2 other local > incoming folders (**), and a number of collection lists, all local but one. > This might be an anomalous usage ... > > (*) one IMAP and one POP, offloaded to the local inbox periodically via > fetchmail. > > (**) populated by procmail. I have a few other procmail rules which sort > SOME messages in some specific folders of the collection lists, but most of > my messages are archived manually in the various folders. > > Note I favour procmail rather then alpine filters to sort messages in folders > (procmail acts immediaely when mail is received) > >>> Behind the name of the inboxes two numbers (2/123) are shown to inform me >>> about new messages or about the total number of messages. > > Yes that's correct. It is displayed for my local inbox, my remote IMAP inbox, > and the local incoming folders. It is displayed for the remote POP folder > ONLY I have previously accessed it. > >>> Since the filters move new messages to my collection list folders, is >>> there a way to get those numbers behind the names of my collection list >>> folders, too ? > > I don't think so. I believe thse numbers are displayed only for the folders > which are declared incoming folders. Am I wrong ? i guess you are right, but i was asking anyway. There are always some tricks around i never heart of and i'm hoping to hear of ,-) Could be a nice feature. Have fun, Nico > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > From robin.listas at telefonica.net Sat Dec 9 17:10:54 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <862b0857-d3f3-9012-cb54-bf5d8fcde04d@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-11-26 a las 16:26 -0500, Karen Lewellen escribi?: > Currently uses alpine to access their gmail account. > A bit of context > I experience sight loss, with basic html my only direct access to my gmail > account..which has been removed as of last Monday. > I use my gmail account personally and professionally, its lost is quite quite > quite a situation for me. > There is an associate in Toronto who is aiming to provide an email setup, > configuring alpine to access gmail, but he has never configured alpine > before. I forgot to mention something which perhaps might be of use to those people using gmail accounts and having difficulties with authentication. Besides the free gmail accounts that we all have, gmail also provides accounts to associations or businesses, like for example, the ieee. Members of the ieee have addresses like someone@ieee.org, which in fact is handled by gmail, most likely for a fee. The important thing is that the association defines the security policy. On ieee there is no nagging to use only oauth2, no nagging about less secure applications, no nagging about having a phone for recovery or a second factor, no nagging about using application passwords. It works as it always did, and gmail keeps silent. It is not only the ieee, I belong to another association in Spain which also uses gsuite, similar rules. So I suggest that you create some association or enterprise, and use gmail through them. Some association for people with difficulties or whatever. Just saying, in case it helps. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZXUQHhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVEvsAoIviaAueEwOrYI7WQkJ1 RnR4fB1cAJ0T9GKzLD51dJKgK/r6mpcw/sIRmg== =yV4x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dclinger at qualcomm.com Mon Dec 11 12:53:30 2023 From: dclinger at qualcomm.com (Deke Clinger) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] number of messages, collection list not inbox In-Reply-To: <39e0c947-af72-d17f-c1ac-bef87fa622e1@posteo.de> References: <39e0c947-af72-d17f-c1ac-bef87fa622e1@posteo.de> Message-ID: Hi, Check in setup for these options: [X] Enable Incoming Folders Collection [X] Enable Incoming Folders Checking [X] Incoming Checking Includes Total and read the help pages for them. With those options turned on I get the message counts for all the folders in the incoming collection, which seems to be what you're asking for here. Regards, -Deke On Fri, 8 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any > links or attachments, and do not enable macros. > > no one ? > > On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > i guess this is my first post to this mailing list. I spent a couple of days > > now to get back to my user experience when i was a student. Many thanks to > > all of you keeping alpine up ;-) > > > > My setup: I've set up two inboxes and two different collection lists. Using > > Rules/Filters I move some of the stuff in my inboxes to folders/directories > > of my collection list. I'm still not sure about exactly when this is > > happening like when opening the inboxes .... > > > > Behind the name of the inboxes two numbers (2/123) are shown to inform me > > about new messages or about the total number of messages. This is nice. > > > > Since the filters move new messages to my collection list folders, is there > > a > > way to get those numbers behind the names of my collection list folders, too > > ? > > > > > > Many thanks in advance, > > > > Nico > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alpine-info mailing list > > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > > From dclinger at qualcomm.com Mon Dec 11 12:57:18 2023 From: dclinger at qualcomm.com (Deke Clinger) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] number of messages, collection list not inbox In-Reply-To: References: <39e0c947-af72-d17f-c1ac-bef87fa622e1@posteo.de> Message-ID: <9efd4da6-2fd1-3894-865-e05ad5642f49@qualcomm.com> Ugh my last reply may not be very helpful, sorry, what I get for answering messages out of order. But it does raise the question is there any reason you can't declare your collection list folders to be incoming folders to enable this? -Deke On Sat, 9 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any > links or attachments, and do not enable macros. > > Hi Lucio, > > many thanks for your reply .... > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2023, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: > > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > > > >> no one ? > > > > Sorry, al least me, I missed the original message > > never mind ... it is awsome that people answer my questions ;-) > > > > >> On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Nico Mock wrote: > > > >>> My setup: I've set up two inboxes and two different collection lists. > > > > Local or remote collection lists ? > > > > Personally I have 3 inboxes of which 2 are transient(*) and 2 other local > > incoming folders (**), and a number of collection lists, all local but one. > > This might be an anomalous usage ... > > > > (*) one IMAP and one POP, offloaded to the local inbox periodically via > > fetchmail. > > > > (**) populated by procmail. I have a few other procmail rules which sort > > SOME messages in some specific folders of the collection lists, but most of > > my messages are archived manually in the various folders. > > > > Note I favour procmail rather then alpine filters to sort messages in > > folders > > (procmail acts immediaely when mail is received) > > > >>> Behind the name of the inboxes two numbers (2/123) are shown to inform me > >>> about new messages or about the total number of messages. > > > > Yes that's correct. It is displayed for my local inbox, my remote IMAP > > inbox, > > and the local incoming folders. It is displayed for the remote POP folder > > ONLY I have previously accessed it. > > > >>> Since the filters move new messages to my collection list folders, is > >>> there a way to get those numbers behind the names of my collection list > >>> folders, too ? > > > > I don't think so. I believe thse numbers are displayed only for the folders > > which are declared incoming folders. Am I wrong ? > > i guess you are right, but i was asking anyway. There are always some > tricks around i never heart of and i'm hoping to hear of ,-) > > Could be a nice feature. > > Have fun, > > Nico > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alpine-info mailing list > > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > > > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > From klewellen at shellworld.net Tue Dec 19 21:30:16 2023 From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and gmail filtering? Message-ID: Hi folks, Have been silent as my resources managed to configure alpine so that it can access my gmail content using imap. i have a master password, my resource has me using ssh to reach where alpine is running as well. The issue seems to be getting the two services to play well together. As an example, when I send a gmail, the message is not placed in my sent messages folder, instead it just gets saved to my inbox. If I delete something, at least just now, it is not actually removed, There may be a couple of things going on. 1, gmail uses a different folder / labeling system from alpine, with perhaps there being a configuration in alpine that needs set for filtering to work correctly..I am quite worried about the wonderful postponed messages folder when a composition gets interrupted. or, 2, my resource who is new to alpine is missing a folder filter step allowing alpine to control where items go? Question is this, if you are using alpine to manage gmail say have been doing this for the last few months, how did you synchronize filtering so sent messages go where they should, trash goes where it should and so forth? Thanks, Karen From andretta at apf.it Wed Dec 20 05:58:23 2023 From: andretta at apf.it (Paolo Andretta) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection Message-ID: Hi all, Migrated my old mail from a server using mailbox to a new one using Maidir (migrated by ImaSync). Alpine 2.21 to Alpine 2.25 I can read the Inbox, but I can't manage all my folders and subfolders. ImapSync created in Maildir a hierarchy like: cur .dead_letter dovecot.index dovecot.index.cache dovecot.index.log dovecot.index.log.2 dovecot-keywords dovecot.list.index dovecot.list.index.log dovecot.mailbox.log dovecot-uidlist dovecot-uidvalidity dovecot-uidvalidity.657d863f .mail .mail.060623andretta .mail.110 .mail.1807Spam .mail.181025 .... .mail.2019 .mail.2019.postponed-msgs .mail.2019.sent-201901 .mail.2019.sent-201902 .mail.2019.sent-201903 .mail.2019.sent-201904 .mail.2019.sent-201905 .mail.2019.sent-201906 .mail.2019.sent-201907 .mail.2019.sent-201908 .mail.2019.sent-201909 .mail.2019.sent-201910 .mail.2019.sent-201911 .mail.2019.sent-201912 .mail.2020 .mail.2020.postponed-msgs .mail.2020.sent-202001 ... .mail.sent-202307 .mail.sent-202308 .mail.sent-202309 .mail.sent-202310 .mail.sent-202311 .mail.sent-mail .mail.SMART .mail.spid .mail.ssl .mail.tmp .mail.Trash1901 .mail.Trash1902 .mail.Trash1903 . . . new subscriptions tmp I have tried to set the variable folder-collections to many values without results. Any hints? My last attempt: folder-collections="Locali" #mc/\.mail/.[] Thanks, Paolo From lucio at lambrate.inaf.it Wed Dec 20 14:57:22 2023 From: lucio at lambrate.inaf.it (Lucio Chiappetti) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and gmail filtering? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Dec 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote: > As an example, when I send a gmail, the message is not placed in my sent > messages folder, instead it just gets saved to my inbox. I suppose that, if you send via Alpine, you can always specify in Fcc: explicitly the (local?) folder where you want to archive. Actually you can also associate in your alpine addressbook an Fcc: for each addreess (my usage is to store both incoming and outgoing messages tyo/from somebody in a folder by person or project ... I never use sent-mail). But I send via a non-gmail SMTP in 98% of the cases. > If I delete something, at least just now, it is not actually removed, delete AND expunge ? If you do not expunge items are just marked for deletion (in alpine) gmail is somewhat odd, I think it moves deleted items to Bin. But alpine can access gmail's Bin, and do ; A A D X (Select All Apply Delete eXpunge) to cleanup Bin. I do it once per day (my fetchmail empties gmail inbox, but a copy is made in Bin anyhow) > 1, gmail uses a different folder / labeling system from alpine Yes I guess so. I never managed to understand it although perhaps one colleague did. But I use only Bin and Spam. ll my other folders are local > 2, my resource who is new to alpine is missing a folder filter step > allowing alpine to control where items go? Other can reply about this. I do not use alpine filtering (which anyhow works when you enter alpine). I use procmail for filtering (at delivery time), but to use that with gmail I need to use fetchmail also. Whose future with gmail is uncertain. I think I sent you some details on my config about one month ago. From robin.listas at telefonica.net Thu Dec 21 03:44:22 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2023-12-20 14:58, Paolo Andretta wrote: > > Hi all, > > Migrated my old mail from a server using mailbox to a new one using > Maidir (migrated by ImaSync). > Alpine 2.21 to Alpine 2.25 > I can read the Inbox, but I can't manage all my folders and subfolders. > ImapSync created in Maildir a hierarchy like: If you used "ImapSync" for the migration, I assume you used an imap server on both machines. Or is it the same machine? The problem them is not in Alpine realm, but in the mail daemon realm. Alpine doesn't care how the daemon keeps the mail inside, it doesn't see the files. But you have to configure dovecot to read the new storage. I assume you already did that, if you moved mail from dovecot server to dovecot server. > > > I have tried to set the variable folder-collections to many values > without results. Any hints? > > My last attempt: > > folder-collections="Locali" #mc/\.mail/.[] folder-collections= "Mail (local imap)" {localhost/novalidate-cert/user=cer}[] Possibly (unsure): [], -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From andretta at apf.it Thu Dec 21 06:01:56 2023 From: andretta at apf.it (Paolo Andretta) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, Damion Yates wrote: > On Thursday 21 December 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote: > On 2023-12-20 14:58, Paolo Andretta wrote: > > Hi all, > > Migrated my old mail from a server using mailbox to a new one using Maidir (migrated by ImaSync). > Alpine 2.21 to Alpine 2.25 > I can read the Inbox, but I can't manage all my folders and subfolders. > ImapSync created in Maildir a hierarchy like: > > If you used "ImapSync" for the migration, I assume you used an imap server on both machines. Or is it the same machine? As I wrote, I have sync the mail to a new server (both use Dovecot, different versions, but I think this isn't interesing). > I believe imapsync will have fetched from the remote IMAP server but written the local Maildir hierarchy.? I use something called offlineimap which does the same > The problem them is not in Alpine realm, but in the mail daemon realm. Alpine doesn't care how the daemon keeps the mail inside, it doesn't see the files. > But you have to configure dovecot to read the new storage. I assume you already did that, if you moved mail from dovecot server to dovecot server. I can read the mails in the new server. It works fine. > I have tried to set the variable folder-collections to many values without results. Any hints? > > My last attempt: > folder-collections="Locali" #mc/\.mail/.[] > > folder-collections= > ? ? ? ? "Mail (local imap)" {localhost/novalidate-cert/user=cer}[] > > Possibly (unsure): > > I believe if I'm recognising the syntax with #mc I believe this is used by the Maildir patch to alpine, which unfortunately is not integrated into the recent releases and remains as a separate patch. > In your original email Paolo, you specify two different alpine versions.? If you are attempting to locally access these files, it needs the alpine to be patched. In my old server, I have mailbox folders that can be accessed locally without problems. When I start my old Alpine (wich is the results of 20+ years upgrades), I simply confirm my username and insert the related pasword. The new server is a standard Rocky 9.x with the package from standard repo: Source RPM : alpine-2.25-2.el9.src.rpm Build Date : Thu Feb 10 16:30:33 2022 Build Host : buildvm-x86-13.iad2.fedoraproject.org Packager : Fedora Project It works with Maildir, so I suppose the patch is integrated. Anyway, If I set: folder-collections="Locali" #mc/Maildir/.[] I have my floder list is something like: INBOX 231221 Sent dead_letter mail[.] I select the [.] and I have my folder hierarchy as usual, except for the annoying matter of selecting the [.] and that the new folder seems not in the standard hierarchy If I set: folder-collections="Locali" #md/Maildir/.mail.[] I have folders at the usual level, but they are all expanded: INBOX sent-mail saved-messages 110 1703EPP-np 1805Spam 190718 190718Err 190923 1999 1999.2000 1999.5200 1999.aba 1999.acca 1999.an 1999.arch 1999.at 1999.att 1999.cli 1999.cofax 1999.con 1999.cv 1999.d 1999.da 1999.db 1999.dedra 1999.dip 1999.ec 1999.en 1999.esa This seems works as I want and expect, but there is the folders expansion problem that is annoying (I have around 1.500 folders/subfolders ...) Searched and played with some settings, but can't find the solution. And it is time consuming to enter/exit from Alpine. And I don't like to solve problems by attempts ... > Even I actually use two versions of alpine, one that I compiled with the > patch years ago and the latest that supports the new xoauth2 > authentication.? It's been on my to-do list for years to go around to > the faf of fetching all the sources integrating the patch and building > an alpine that supports both at the same time.? Also on my to-do list is > to convince Eduardo Chappa to integrate the patch. I personally prefer mbox over Maidir for historical reason and because I am lazy and Maildir probably require me to revise all my old settings, procmail rules, management scripts, ... but it is the de facto standard for many configurations and it is better for backup/sync ... > Another solution is to fire up a local instance of an IMAP daemon which > will speak Maildir and have alpine communicate to that.? There are > potentially some caching and searching efficiencies to be gained, > however this also sounds a bit complicated and I don't bother with this > myself. I am already working on a mail server that directly receive mail form the net ;-) Thanks, Paolo From robin.listas at telefonica.net Fri Dec 22 09:22:25 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> On 2023-12-21 15:01, Paolo Andretta wrote: > On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, Damion Yates wrote: >> On Thursday 21 December 2023, Carlos E. R. <> wrote: >> ????? On 2023-12-20 14:58, Paolo Andretta wrote: >> >> ??????????? Hi all, >> >> ??????????? Migrated my old mail from a server using mailbox to a new >> one using Maidir (migrated by ImaSync). >> ??????????? Alpine 2.21 to Alpine 2.25 >> ??????????? I can read the Inbox, but I can't manage all my folders >> and subfolders. >> ??????????? ImapSync created in Maildir a hierarchy like: >> >> ????? If you used "ImapSync" for the migration, I assume you used an >> imap server on both machines. Or is it the same machine? > > As I wrote, I have sync the mail to a new server (both use Dovecot, > different versions, but I think this isn't interesing). > Then, why are you trying to tell alpine to access the files directly, instead of using dovecot? ... >> Even I actually use two versions of alpine, one that I compiled with >> the patch years ago and the latest that supports the new xoauth2 >> authentication.? It's been on my to-do list for years to go around to >> the faf of fetching all the sources integrating the patch and building >> an alpine that supports both at the same time.? Also on my to-do list >> is to convince Eduardo Chappa to integrate the patch. > > I personally prefer mbox over Maidir for historical reason and because I > am lazy and Maildir probably require me to revise all my old settings, > procmail rules, management scripts, ... but it is the de facto standard > for many configurations and it is better for backup/sync ... Dovecot works fine with mbox. I do not use Maildir. ... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From andretta at apf.it Fri Dec 22 10:55:50 2023 From: andretta at apf.it (Paolo) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> References: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Dec 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote: >> >> As I wrote, I have sync the mail to a new server (both use Dovecot, >> different versions, but I think this isn't interesing). >> > > Then, why are you trying to tell alpine to access the files directly, instead > of using dovecot? I was supposing Alpine is using dovecot to access the folders (it authenticate on startup), but probably there is some path/prefix that need to be configured. And I can't find the configuration that give me a normal operanting situation. > ... > >> I personally prefer mbox over Maidir for historical reason and because I am >> lazy and Maildir probably require me to revise all my old settings, >> procmail rules, management scripts, ... but it is the de facto standard for >> many configurations and it is better for backup/sync ... > > Dovecot works fine with mbox. > > I do not use Maildir. Neither I, until now, but I want to align to all my other services/users. -- Thanks, Paolo ____________________________________________ From robin.listas at telefonica.net Fri Dec 22 12:23:38 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <0f953d85-306c-40b3-a086-50b4b3f634c6@telefonica.net> On 2023-12-22 19:55, Paolo wrote: > On Fri, 22 Dec 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote: > >>> >>> As I wrote, I have sync the mail to a new server (both use Dovecot, >>> different versions, but I think this isn't interesing). >>> >> >> Then, why are you trying to tell alpine to access the files directly, >> instead of using dovecot? > > I was supposing Alpine is using dovecot to access the folders (it > authenticate on startup), but probably there is some path/prefix that > need to be configured. And I can't find the configuration that give me a > normal operanting situation. You just tell Alpine the imap server and folder to use, same as with any external mail server. Not the local path. Example: folder-collections="local imap" {localhost/novalidate-cert/user=YOURSER}[], -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jason-alpine-info at shalott.net Fri Dec 22 15:10:11 2023 From: jason-alpine-info at shalott.net (jason-alpine-info@shalott.net) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: <0f953d85-306c-40b3-a086-50b4b3f634c6@telefonica.net> References: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> <0f953d85-306c-40b3-a086-50b4b3f634c6@telefonica.net> Message-ID: > You just tell Alpine the imap server and folder to use, same as with any > external mail server. Not the local path. You can get the best of both worlds: using Dovecot to access your mail, but taking advantage of the fact that you're on the same local host and skipping the network connection and the authentication. This is both the safest option and the most performant option (fastest startup times, fastest searching and sorting, etc), especially for very large maildirs. The way that I achieve this is to set Rsh Path to a local script that calls the Dovecot IMAP backend: % grep rsh-path ~/.pinerc rsh-path=/usr/local/bin/pine-local-imap % cat /usr/local/bin/pine-local-imap #!/bin/sh cd ${HOME}/Maildir/ || exit 1 exec /usr/libexec/dovecot/imap 2>/dev/null Then set Inbox Path to "{localhost/novalidate-cert}INBOX", Folder Collection to "{localhost/novalidate-cert}[]", etc. (And if you share with other, potentially non-local IMAP clients -- e.g., your phone -- set FCC, Postponed, etc to match their expectations, e.g. Default Fcc = "{localhost/novalidate-cert}Sent", etc.) -Jason From robin.listas at telefonica.net Fri Dec 22 17:24:06 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> <0f953d85-306c-40b3-a086-50b4b3f634c6@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <12752c12-9ab2-f754-d1d8-ca5bbfc3e056@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-12-22 a las 15:10 -0800, jason-alpine-info@shalott.net escribi?: >> You just tell Alpine the imap server and folder to use, same as with any >> external mail server. Not the local path. > > You can get the best of both worlds: using Dovecot to access your mail, but > taking advantage of the fact that you're on the same local host and skipping > the network connection and the authentication. This is both the safest > option and the most performant option (fastest startup times, fastest > searching and sorting, etc), especially for very large maildirs. It is not the safest, actually. Chances are, where there is Dovecot in the mix, that mail can be accesses at the same time by more than one program. Accessing via the imap server ensures concurrent yet safe access. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZYY2thwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVAPcAnRWXXzDwB5y4vk9lYiBN ldyxMnGLAJ0S0O9mjQ6Wzcyjhww/QLrJwfh2Vw== =Mhkj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jason-alpine-info at shalott.net Fri Dec 22 21:05:44 2023 From: jason-alpine-info at shalott.net (jason-alpine-info@shalott.net) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: <12752c12-9ab2-f754-d1d8-ca5bbfc3e056@telefonica.net> References: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> <0f953d85-306c-40b3-a086-50b4b3f634c6@telefonica.net> <12752c12-9ab2-f754-d1d8-ca5bbfc3e056@telefonica.net> Message-ID: > It is not the safest, actually. Chances are, where there is Dovecot in > the mix, that mail can be accesses at the same time by more than one > program. Accessing via the imap server ensures concurrent yet safe > access. Dovecot, by design, always uses multiple processes for concurrent IMAP sessions. You can see this easily for yourself by connecting to your IMAP server multiple times and noting that the external listener spawns multiple imap backends to actually process the IMAP commands. Directly calling Dovecot's imap backend from Alpine is no different from making a network connection to the Dovecot frontend and having it spawn the additional backend. And anyway, this misses the point, because the alternative was to have both Dovecot and Alpine directly (and concurrently) touching the maildir. Even in this case, there is no chance of losing messages when using maildir format (one of its major features); but metadata like uidvalidity can't be assured. Having Dovecot be the only app that touches the maildir ensures that everything stays consistent. And being able to directly call the Dovecot backends from different frontends, including directly from your mail reader, is one of Dovecot's features. -Jason From andretta at apf.it Sat Dec 23 12:55:16 2023 From: andretta at apf.it (Paolo Andretta) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: <0f953d85-306c-40b3-a086-50b4b3f634c6@telefonica.net> References: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> <0f953d85-306c-40b3-a086-50b4b3f634c6@telefonica.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Dec 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote: >>> >>> Then, why are you trying to tell alpine to access the files directly, >>> instead of using dovecot? >> >> I was supposing Alpine is using dovecot to access the folders (it >> authenticate on startup), but probably there is some path/prefix that need >> to be configured. And I can't find the configuration that give me a normal >> operanting situation. > > > You just tell Alpine the imap server and folder to use, same as with any > external mail server. Not the local path. > > Example: > > folder-collections="local imap" {localhost/novalidate-cert/user=YOURSER}[], If I go to Folder list I get INBOX[.] sent-mail[.] 231221[.] Sent[.] dead_letter[.] mail[.] Similar result of using: folder-collections="Locali" #mc/Maildir/.[] That give: INBOX sent-mail 231221 Sent dead_letter mail[.] A little better ... My only problem is tjhat I want the folder collection that are accessible from "mail[.]" and are in ~/Maildir visualized in the main folder list. Also, Alpine is creating The new folders in ~ (home), instead than in ~/Maildir, an it is creating it in mbox format. -- Thanks, Paolo From robin.listas at telefonica.net Sat Dec 23 19:41:06 2023 From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: <66c2fc4c-b3c6-4f73-af12-2b8044112505@telefonica.net> <0f953d85-306c-40b3-a086-50b4b3f634c6@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <60b89766-ea25-4935-8218-8324fd4539b5@telefonica.net> On 2023-12-23 21:55, Paolo Andretta wrote: > On Fri, 22 Dec 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote: > >>>> >>>> Then, why are you trying to tell alpine to access the files >>>> directly, instead of using dovecot? >>> >>> I was supposing Alpine is using dovecot to access the folders (it >>> authenticate on startup), but probably there is some path/prefix that >>> need to be configured. And I can't find the configuration that give >>> me a normal operanting situation. >> >> >> You just tell Alpine the imap server and folder to use, same as with >> any external mail server. Not the local path. >> >> Example: >> >> folder-collections="local imap" >> {localhost/novalidate-cert/user=YOURSER}[], > > If I go to Folder list I get > > INBOX[.]??????? sent-mail[.]??? 231221[.]?????? Sent[.] > dead_letter[.]? mail[.] > > Similar result of using: > > folder-collections="Locali" #mc/Maildir/.[] > > That give: > > INBOX?????? sent-mail?? 231221????? Sent??????? dead_letter mail[.] > > A little better ... > > My only problem is tjhat I want the folder collection that are > accessible from "mail[.]" and are in? ~/Maildir visualized in the main > folder list. > Also, Alpine is creating The new folders in ~ (home), instead than in > ~/Maildir, an it is creating it in mbox format. If you are using imap, that's Dovecot's problem, not Alpine. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Sat Dec 23 20:08:50 2023 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14f0620f-f66e-9801-1248-1072884724a3@yandex.com> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023, Paolo Andretta wrote: > I have tried to set the variable folder-collections to many values without > results. Any hints? If you are going to use Alpine exclusively to manage your folders try these: folder-collections="Nick Name" #mc/INBOX.[], "Another Nick" #mc/INBOX.mail.[] The first one gives you access to all folders under inbox, the second to all folders under mail. I hope this helps. -- Eduardo From andretta at apf.it Sun Dec 24 05:42:58 2023 From: andretta at apf.it (Paolo Andretta) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:34 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: <14f0620f-f66e-9801-1248-1072884724a3@yandex.com> References: <14f0620f-f66e-9801-1248-1072884724a3@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Dec 2023, Eduardo Chappa wrote: >> I have tried to set the variable folder-collections to many values without >> results. Any hints? > > If you are going to use Alpine exclusively to manage your folders try these: > > folder-collections="Nick Name" #mc/INBOX.[], > "Another Nick" #mc/INBOX.mail.[] > > The first one gives you access to all folders under inbox, the second to all > folders under mail. Not what I hoped to achieve :-( When I press "l" to go to Folder list, I get: Nick Name Local folders in #mc/Maildir. Another Nick Local folders in #mc/Maildir.mail. that is like what I can already have with the setting: folder-collections="Locali" #mc/Maildir/.[] whit a one more selection level ... instead of my old (current "mbox" based server), usual: INBOX sent-mail saved-messages .imap/ 1807Spam 1808Spam 181025 190623 190923 1999/ 2000/ 2001/ 2002/ 2003/ 2004/ 2005/ 2006/ 2007/ 2008/ 2009/ Isp09 Italo Lux Lux-0 Mailman.log NetData SMART Spam Trash1904 Trash1905 Trash1906 Trash1907 Trash1910 Trash1911 Trash1912 Trash2001 Trash2002 Trash2003 In my mind, if I can tell Alpine to consider ~/Maildir/ like is "basedir" instead of ~/ I can have what I want. In my experimentations I found that renaming my folders from their current name ~/Maildir/.mail.FOLDER-NAME or ~/Maildir/.mail.FOLDER-NAME.SUB-FOLDER-NAME to ~/Maildir/.FOLDER-NAME and ~/Maildir/.FOLDER-NAME.SUB-FOLDER-NAME seems to solve the problem, but I have 1500+ folders and I can do it only when I will finish the server migration and don't need more sync from old and new server. I noticied this situation is limited to the few accounts that have used Pine/Alpine in the years and have the folders created under the ~/mail/ dir. Thanks, Paolo From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Sun Dec 24 08:11:14 2023 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:34 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: <14f0620f-f66e-9801-1248-1072884724a3@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Paolo Andretta wrote: > Not what I hoped to achieve :-( > When I press "l" to go to Folder list, I get: > > > Nick Name > Local folders in #mc/Maildir. > > Another Nick > Local folders in #mc/Maildir.mail. > It seems that you need to spend some time in the configuration screen. Press M S C and look at all the options under [ Folder Preferences ]. > that is like what I can already have with the setting: > folder-collections="Locali" #mc/Maildir/.[] > whit a one more selection level ... Since you are already renaming things, not one line will do the job. I would have considered to use the value folder-collections="Locali" #mc/INBOX.mail.[] but that will not do either because you are already renaming folders manually. I do not think you can do what you want given what you reported. -- Eduardo From andretta at apf.it Sun Dec 24 10:05:33 2023 From: andretta at apf.it (Paolo Andretta) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:34 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: <14f0620f-f66e-9801-1248-1072884724a3@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Eduardo Chappa wrote: >> that is like what I can already have with the setting: >> folder-collections="Locali" #mc/Maildir/.[] >> whit a one more selection level ... > > Since you are already renaming things, not one line will do the job. I would > have considered to use the value > > folder-collections="Locali" #mc/INBOX.mail.[] This solve the problem ;-) > but that will not do either because you are already renaming folders > manually. I do not think you can do what you want given what you reported. Sorry if my poor english don't explain exacly what I want to communicate. I have only tried to copy renaming some folder for test. May be when situation is stabilized I do a global rename of folders, but not now that I need to sync them before putting the new server in production. Now my folder list is: INBOX sent-mail saved-messages 1999[.] 2000[.] 2001[.] 200126 200128 2002[.] 2003[.] 2004[.] 2005[.] 2006[.] 2007[.] 2008[.] 2009[.] 2010[.] 2011[.] 2012[.] 2013[.] 2014[.] 2015[.] 2016[.] 2017[.] 2018[.] 2019[.] 2020[.] .... Trash1903 Trash1904 Trash1905 Trash1906 Trash1907 Trash1908 Trash1909 Trash1910 Trash1911 Trash1912 Trash2001 Trash2002 Trash2003 Trash2004 Trash2005 Trash2006 Trash2007 Trash2008 The key is #mC instead of #mD that I tried before. I don't know the differences, but it solves my visualization "problem" ;-) And except for the "." instead of "/" all seems more similar to my old server/Alpine. > It seems that you need to spend some time in the configuration screen. Press > M S C and look at all the options under [ Folder Preferences ]. [ Folder Preferences ] [ ] Combined Folder Display [ ] Combined Subdirectory Display [ ] Compensate for Deficient IMAP servers [X] Enable Hidden Folders [ ] Enable Incoming Folders Collection [ ] Enable Incoming Folders Checking [ ] Incoming Checking Includes Total [ ] Incoming Checking Uses Recent [ ] Expanded View of Folders [ ] Hide Empty Directories [X] Separate Folder and Directory Entries [ ] Single Column Folder List [ ] Sort Default Fcc Folder Alphabetically [ ] Sort Default Save Folder Alphabetically [ ] Use Vertical Folder List [ ] Courier Style Folder List Enabling: [X] Separate Folder and Directory Entries I have: INBOX sent-mail saved-messages 1999. 2000. 2001. 200126 200128 2002. 2003. 2004. 2005. 2006. 2007. 2008. 2009. 2010. 2011. 2012. 2013. 2014. 2015. 2016. 2017. 2018. 2019. 2020. .... Trash1903 Trash1904 Trash1905 Trash1906 Trash1907 Trash1908 Trash1909 Trash1910 Trash1911 Trash1912 Trash2001 Trash2002 Trash2003 Trash2004 Trash2005 Trash2006 Trash2007 Trash2008 no more [.] separated from folder name (not interested to insert mails into the root of a folder) That is what I wanted ;-) The only problem I noticied is that while I can create a subfolder saving a message in FOLDER.subfolder , when I try to delete it it give me this error: [Can not read #mc/Maildir/.mail.23.12a//: No such file or directory] subfolder [Can not read #mc/Maildir/.mail.2312c//: No such file or directory] folder It deletes the messagges, but not the folders. Thanks for your support. Using Pine/Alpine since old RH 4.x (may be also in Slack before), I always migrated my profiles simply copying the user folder and this is surely less good than start a new clean profile ... -- Thanks, Paolo From alpine.chappa at yandex.com Sun Dec 24 16:15:29 2023 From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:34 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: References: <14f0620f-f66e-9801-1248-1072884724a3@yandex.com> Message-ID: <2a381fcf-fb48-8b83-6d54-88bd079c2c36@yandex.com> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Paolo Andretta wrote: > The only problem I noticied is that while I can create a subfolder > saving a message in FOLDER.subfolder , when I try to delete it it give > me this error: > > [Can not read #mc/Maildir/.mail.23.12a//: No such file or directory] > subfolder Ouch, that does not sound right. I have made some modifications to the code to attempt to address this and published a new patch. If you can test it I would appreciate it. The patch can be obtained from https://alpineapp.email/alpine/info/maildir.html Thank you! -- Eduardo From andretta at apf.it Mon Dec 25 01:46:41 2023 From: andretta at apf.it (Paolo Andretta) Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:34 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Maildir folder-collection In-Reply-To: <2a381fcf-fb48-8b83-6d54-88bd079c2c36@yandex.com> References: <14f0620f-f66e-9801-1248-1072884724a3@yandex.com> <2a381fcf-fb48-8b83-6d54-88bd079c2c36@yandex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Eduardo Chappa wrote: >> The only problem I noticied is that while I can create a subfolder saving a >> message in FOLDER.subfolder , when I try to delete it it give me this >> error: >> >> [Can not read #mc/Maildir/.mail.23.12a//: No such file or directory] >> subfolder > > Ouch, that does not sound right. I have made some modifications to the code > to attempt to address this and published a new patch. If you can test it I > would appreciate it. The patch can be obtained from > > https://alpineapp.email/alpine/info/maildir.html I am an old lazy sysadmin ;-) I switched from Slack to RH and Debian to reduce the package compilation activity ;-) I try to test your patch asap, but I need to create a VM with development tools installed and refresh my memory on building rpm (last rpm that I build was a couple of years ago ...) I suppose I can't do this today ;-) Thanks for yor interest and for development of Pine/Alpine in all this years ;-) Regards, Paolo ******************************************** | | ' |. ' . | | |' . . ' | ' | | | . ' ' |. ' ' | | | . . | ' . | | | | ' . | ' ' | | |___-*-_____|____________| | | | . | ' . . | | | '. # ' .| ' .| | | /"\ . | . . . | | | ./@ o\ | . | | |' / \ '' |. . 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