From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Fri Nov 17 12:50:55 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME.
Message-ID: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



I have S/MIME configured in Thunderbird.

What are the steps to transfer or copy my key or certificate from 
Thunderbird to Alpine?

The certificate I have has the extension .p12. I tried copying the file to 
~/.alpine-smime/private, but alpine says it doesn't find any certificate 
for signing.

What is the procedure? For dummies, please.

If there is a link that explains it, please tell..

I already read <https://alpineapp.email/alpine/alpine-info/misc/smime.html>,
and I don't understand it. I don't know what to do.

I use openSUSE Linux 15.5

- -- 
Thank you,
            Carlos E. R.
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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Fri Nov 17 20:56:22 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] basic alpine setup question..again?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311172351280.3520728@users.shellworld.net>

Hi folks,
Having to set up another mailbox on dreamhost, using Alpine.
I recall this error some years back, but even alpine has been updated, so 
I do not recall where to fix these two  issues.
first I get an rsh to imap timeout error..all the time, but can still 
reach my inbox.
That may be why that inbox closes after about a minute.
What settings impact timeout where communication between alpine and the 
imap.dreamhost.com server?
should I add imap to my  list collection as well?
Thanks,

Karen



From chime at hubert-humphrey.com  Fri Nov 17 21:19:43 2023
From: chime at hubert-humphrey.com (Chime Hart)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] basic alpine setup question..again?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311172351280.3520728@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311172351280.3520728@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <c85aebd7-9af7-9cd1-c180-e2b65f2cf520@hubert-humphrey.com>

Hi Karen-and-All: Looking in my config, useing a w to look for any instance of 
time, I found this which hopefully will do the trick
Incoming Check Timeout            = <No Value Set: using "5">
Best of luck
Chime


From alpine.chappa at yandex.com  Sat Nov 18 07:14:21 2023
From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME.
In-Reply-To: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
References: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> I have S/MIME configured in Thunderbird.
>
> What are the steps to transfer or copy my key or certificate from 
> Thunderbird to Alpine?
>
> The certificate I have has the extension .p12. I tried copying the file 
> to ~/.alpine-smime/private, but alpine says it doesn't find any 
> certificate for signing.

Dear Carlos,

   from the main screen, press "?", and search for S/MIME, then press 
"Return" to read general help on S/MIME. This will take you to the 
following link x-alpine-help:h_mainhelp_smime, which you can follow 
directly if you are reading this message with Alpine. That link will tell 
you all you need to know, including what to do with your .p12 certificate.

-- 
Eduardo

From alpine.chappa at yandex.com  Sat Nov 18 07:25:34 2023
From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] basic alpine setup question..again?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311172351280.3520728@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311172351280.3520728@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <5a955fb3-5ddb-54e8-dcbd-3f62202678e8@yandex.com>

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> Hi folks,
> Having to set up another mailbox on dreamhost, using Alpine.
> I recall this error some years back, but even alpine has been updated, so
> I do not recall where to fix these two  issues.
> first I get an rsh to imap timeout error..all the time, but can still
> reach my inbox.
Dear Karen,

   you can eliminate rhs timeouts by editing your .pinerc file. Set

rsh-open-timeout=0

I hope this helps.

> should I add imap to my list collection as well?

Without knowing how dreamhost organizes folders, it might be advisable if 
there is information in there that you need.

-- 
Eduardo

From klewellen at shellworld.net  Sat Nov 18 08:26:24 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] basic alpine setup question..again?
In-Reply-To: <c85aebd7-9af7-9cd1-c180-e2b65f2cf520@hubert-humphrey.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311172351280.3520728@users.shellworld.net>
	<c85aebd7-9af7-9cd1-c180-e2b65f2cf520@hubert-humphrey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311181124570.3528357@users.shellworld.net>

Hi Chime,
That sounds  like a solution.
Is the time set in seconds?
Meaning if I want a  time out check of say 15 minutes I must set that 
amount  in seconds?



On Fri, 17 Nov 2023, Chime Hart wrote:

> Hi Karen-and-All: Looking in my config, useing a w to look for any instance 
> of time, I found this which hopefully will do the trick
> Incoming Check Timeout            = <No Value Set: using "5">
> Best of luck
> Chime
>
>
>

From chime at hubert-humphrey.com  Sat Nov 18 08:47:27 2023
From: chime at hubert-humphrey.com (Chime Hart)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] basic alpine setup question..again?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311181124570.3528357@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311172351280.3520728@users.shellworld.net>
	<c85aebd7-9af7-9cd1-c180-e2b65f2cf520@hubert-humphrey.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311181124570.3528357@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <9f29d9db-42cc-1c95-0565-59e1447d5568@hubert-humphrey.com>

Hi Karen: Just as a guess, it may be in seconds just like checking for new 
mail.
Chime


From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Sat Nov 18 12:35:35 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME.
In-Reply-To: <e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>
References: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
	<e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <da37e13e-c7b4-923f-3101-00664ce74cb0@telefonica.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Content-ID: <0c4aaf49-2f73-9bac-58e4-40a864d4cd7e@Laicolasse.valinor>


El 2023-11-18 a las 08:14 -0700, Eduardo Chappa escribi?:

> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>  I have S/MIME configured in Thunderbird.
>>
>>  What are the steps to transfer or copy my key or certificate from
>>  Thunderbird to Alpine?
>>
>>  The certificate I have has the extension .p12. I tried copying the file to
>>  ~/.alpine-smime/private, but alpine says it doesn't find any certificate
>>  for signing.
>
> Dear Carlos,
>
>  from the main screen, press "?", and search for S/MIME, then press "Return" 
> to read general help on S/MIME. This will take you to the following link 
> x-alpine-help:h_mainhelp_smime, which you can follow directly if you are 
> reading this message with Alpine. That link will tell you all you need to 
> know, including what to do with your .p12 certificate.

Ah, thanks! :-)

There is something not clear. The help text says:

?After you have exported these certificates and keys, you can use the 
import command in Alpine, from the S/MIME configuration screen, to import 
these certificates into Alpine. They will be available for use as soon as 
you import them.?


I suppose these are the import commands. But what is "container"?


 	---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 	Be careful with the following commands, they REPLACE contents in the target
 	---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 	Transfer public certs FROM directory TO container
 	Transfer private keys FROM directory TO container
 	Transfer CA certs FROM directory TO container

 	Transfer public certs FROM container TO directory
 	Transfer private keys FROM container TO directory
 	Transfer CA certs FROM container TO directory


I assume "container" is the directory where I did the conversions. Hum, 
no, seems to be some global systemwide place that is not mentioned where 
it is. And the commands (second group) don't seem to do anything.


Is there some other import command somewhere?


So I just copied:

MAIL@ADDRESS.key  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/private/
MAIL@ADDRESS.crt  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/public/
certificate-ca.crt ->  ~/.alpine-smime/ca/    (is this name correc?)


and restarted alpine. But I still can not sign:

                  [Couldn't find the certificate needed to sign.]



So I guess the importing must be done differently from what I did.






- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
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From alpine.chappa at yandex.com  Sat Nov 18 17:08:45 2023
From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME.
In-Reply-To: <da37e13e-c7b4-923f-3101-00664ce74cb0@telefonica.net>
References: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
	<e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>
	<da37e13e-c7b4-923f-3101-00664ce74cb0@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <ff263d30-e0ed-915e-b3ab-f5f139d2305c@yandex.com>

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> There is something not clear. The help text says:
>
> ?After you have exported these certificates and keys, you can use the 
> import command in Alpine, from the S/MIME configuration screen, to 
> import these certificates into Alpine. They will be available for use as 
> soon as you import them.?
>
>
> I suppose these are the import commands. But what is "container"?
>
> 	---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 	Be careful with the following commands, they REPLACE contents in the target
> 	---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 	Transfer public certs FROM directory TO container
> 	Transfer private keys FROM directory TO container
> 	Transfer CA certs FROM directory TO container
>
> 	Transfer public certs FROM container TO directory
> 	Transfer private keys FROM container TO directory
> 	Transfer CA certs FROM container TO directory

Hello Carlos,

   those commands allow you to move certificates between places. A 
container is a file that contains lots of certificates. Like a folder is 
to email. In a container you will find certificates one after the other. 
The most common method today is to have a one-file-per-certificate, so it 
can be easily managed (deleted or replaced, for example). Take a look at 
the commands under this section

-----------------------------
Manage your own certificates
-----------------------------

Manage Public Certificates
Manage Private Keys
Manage Certificate Authorities

> So I just copied:
>
> MAIL@ADDRESS.key  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/private/
> MAIL@ADDRESS.crt  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/public/
> certificate-ca.crt ->  ~/.alpine-smime/ca/    (is this name correc?)

copy MAIL@ADDRESS.crt to ~/.alpine-smime/ca/ also.

Do you mind sharing "ls -lR ~/.alpine-smime" with me if this does not 
work?

Another thing to check. Here is some of the content of my keys:

private/eduardo.chappa@gmx.com.key:
-----BEGIN ENCRYPTED PRIVATE KEY-----
MIIFHDBOBgkqhkiG................
............ lots of lines .....
....j8jdgft+RnzyFXw==
-----END ENCRYPTED PRIVATE KEY-----


public/eduardo.chappa@gmx.com.crt:
-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
MIIEBzCCAu+gAwIBAg...............
............... lots of lines....
....b+WcluD75bqpF1qI9ph2GZLqUiZKK
-----END CERTIFICATE-----

ca/eduardo.chappa@gmx.com.crt: same as public/eduardo.chappa@gmx.com.crt.

I hope this helps.

-- 
Eduardo
From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Sat Nov 18 17:50:41 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME.
In-Reply-To: <ff263d30-e0ed-915e-b3ab-f5f139d2305c@yandex.com>
References: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
	<e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>
	<da37e13e-c7b4-923f-3101-00664ce74cb0@telefonica.net>
	<ff263d30-e0ed-915e-b3ab-f5f139d2305c@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <a82bbd0e-5f4e-c46a-31f4-a8925ba9f468@telefonica.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



El 2023-11-18 a las 18:08 -0700, Eduardo Chappa escribi?:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>  There is something not clear. The help text says:
>>
>>  ?After you have exported these certificates and keys, you can use the
>>  import command in Alpine, from the S/MIME configuration screen, to import
>>  these certificates into Alpine. They will be available for use as soon as
>>  you import them.?
>> 
>>
>>  I suppose these are the import commands. But what is "container"?
>>
>>   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Be careful with the following commands, they REPLACE contents in the
>>   target
>>   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>   Transfer public certs FROM directory TO container
>>   Transfer private keys FROM directory TO container
>>   Transfer CA certs FROM directory TO container
>>
>>   Transfer public certs FROM container TO directory
>>   Transfer private keys FROM container TO directory
>>   Transfer CA certs FROM container TO directory
>
> Hello Carlos,
>
>  those commands allow you to move certificates between places. A container 
> is a file that contains lots of certificates. Like a folder is to email. In a 
> container you will find certificates one after the other. The most common 
> method today is to have a one-file-per-certificate, so it can be easily 
> managed (deleted or replaced, for example). Take a look at the commands under 
> this section

Ah, I see.


>
> -----------------------------
> Manage your own certificates
> -----------------------------
>
> Manage Public Certificates
> Manage Private Keys
> Manage Certificate Authorities

I assume these three are for self signed certificates, so they don't apply 
to me.



>>  So I just copied:
>>
>>  MAIL@ADDRESS.key  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/private/
>>  MAIL@ADDRESS.crt  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/public/
>>  certificate-ca.crt ->  ~/.alpine-smime/ca/    (is this name correc?)
>
> copy MAIL@ADDRESS.crt to ~/.alpine-smime/ca/ also.

Ah. Done. But doesn't help.

>
> Do you mind sharing "ls -lR ~/.alpine-smime" with me if this does not work?

Sure, will mail that in private after this mail.

>
> Another thing to check. Here is some of the content of my keys:
>
> private/eduardo.chappa@gmx.com.key:
> -----BEGIN ENCRYPTED PRIVATE KEY-----
> MIIFHDBOBgkqhkiG................
> ............ lots of lines .....
> ....j8jdgft+RnzyFXw==
> -----END ENCRYPTED PRIVATE KEY-----
>

Bag Attributes
     localKeyID: 5B 4E 86 ...
     friendlyName: ROBIN....
Key Attributes: <No Attributes>
- -----BEGIN ENCRYPTED PRIVATE KEY-----
M


>
> public/eduardo.chappa@gmx.com.crt:
> -----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
> MIIEBzCCAu+gAwIBAg...............
> ............... lots of lines....
> ....b+WcluD75bqpF1qI9ph2GZLqUiZKK
> -----END CERTIFICATE-----


Bag Attributes
     localKeyID: 5B 4E 86 ...
     friendlyName: ROBIN...
subject=C = ES, serialNumber = ID..., GN = CARLOS, SN = ROBIN..., CN = ROBIN...

issuer=C = ES, O = FNMT-RCM, OU = Ceres, CN = AC FNMT Usuarios

- -----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
MI

>
> ca/eduardo.chappa@gmx.com.crt: same as public/eduardo.chappa@gmx.com.crt.

/home/cer/.alpine-smime/ca/certificate-ca.crt

Bag Attributes: <Empty Attributes>
subject=C = ES, O = FNMT-RCM, OU = Ceres, CN = AC FNMT Usuarios

issuer=C = ES, O = FNMT-RCM, OU = AC RAIZ FNMT-RCM

- -----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
M


>
> I hope this helps.


Thanks, but still not there...

For the record, it fails also in Thunderbird, but in Alpine I don't know 
yet if I have it configured properly.

same error code as this bug:
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1756413>
It seems RSA-PSS certificates are not supported.

There's also this:
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1364339>

Same certificate works in Firefox. It is an official certificate used to 
identify against the administration, tax forms and such. To get one, we 
have to go in person to their offices and get properly identified by some 
official, but otherwise it is gratis IIRC.


- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From alpine.chappa at yandex.com  Sat Nov 18 20:48:23 2023
From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME.
In-Reply-To: <a82bbd0e-5f4e-c46a-31f4-a8925ba9f468@telefonica.net>
References: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
	<e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>
	<da37e13e-c7b4-923f-3101-00664ce74cb0@telefonica.net>
	<ff263d30-e0ed-915e-b3ab-f5f139d2305c@yandex.com>
	<a82bbd0e-5f4e-c46a-31f4-a8925ba9f468@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <df9a2928-ee2a-01a0-de86-488444c2595e@yandex.com>

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> -----------------------------
>> Manage your own certificates
>> -----------------------------
>>
>> Manage Public Certificates
>> Manage Private Keys
>> Manage Certificate Authorities
>
> I assume these three are for self signed certificates, so they don't 
> apply to me.

They apply to any certificates or keys that you wish to import, so they do 
apply to you.

>>>  MAIL@ADDRESS.key  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/private/
>>>  MAIL@ADDRESS.crt  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/public/
>>>  certificate-ca.crt ->  ~/.alpine-smime/ca/    (is this name correc?)
>>
>> copy MAIL@ADDRESS.crt to ~/.alpine-smime/ca/ also.
>
> Ah. Done. But doesn't help.

Have you run alpine with debug to see what more information you can get 
out of the debug?

>> Do you mind sharing "ls -lR ~/.alpine-smime" with me if this does not 
>> work?
>
> Sure, will mail that in private after this mail.


Thank you. I got it. It all looks good.

> Thanks, but still not there...
>
> For the record, it fails also in Thunderbird, but in Alpine I don't know 
> yet if I have it configured properly.

Yes, your Alpine is configured correctly. All your permissions are set 
correctly. Although your certificates have information in them that is not 
part of the key or certificate, that information does not matter because 
it is ignored when the certificate is processed, so I am not sure what 
your problem is.

> same error code as this bug:
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1756413>
> It seems RSA-PSS certificates are not supported.
>
> There's also this:
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1364339>

Not my expertise here, but reading man pages, it looks like RSA-PSS uses 
pkcs#8, while s/mime uses pkcs#7.

https://www.openssl.org/docs/man1.1.1/man7/RSA-PSS.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKCS

I can't imagine these are good news for you. Let me interpret this in a 
different way. It looks like the purpose of your certificate is not for 
s/mime, hence it is not surprising it fails. Since I am not the expert 
here, I'd love to be corrected.

-- 
Eduardo

From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Sun Nov 19 04:03:33 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME.
In-Reply-To: <df9a2928-ee2a-01a0-de86-488444c2595e@yandex.com>
References: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
	<e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>
	<da37e13e-c7b4-923f-3101-00664ce74cb0@telefonica.net>
	<ff263d30-e0ed-915e-b3ab-f5f139d2305c@yandex.com>
	<a82bbd0e-5f4e-c46a-31f4-a8925ba9f468@telefonica.net>
	<df9a2928-ee2a-01a0-de86-488444c2595e@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <9b1937fb-7603-097b-fbd4-8f51ed661238@telefonica.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



El 2023-11-18 a las 21:48 -0700, Eduardo Chappa escribi?:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>>  -----------------------------
>>>  Manage your own certificates
>>>  -----------------------------
>>>
>>>  Manage Public Certificates
>>>  Manage Private Keys
>>>  Manage Certificate Authorities
>>
>>  I assume these three are for self signed certificates, so they don't apply
>>  to me.
>
> They apply to any certificates or keys that you wish to import, so they do 
> apply to you.

Oh! Ok. Guess I have a thick day. :-}

The three see the certificates, I don't see errors.

Manage Certificate Authorities:

+++??????????????????
Certificate Information
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certificate Owner                                            Issuer
AC FNMT Usuarios                                             AC RAIZ 
FNMT-RCM
Ceres                                                        FNMT-RCM
FNMT-RCM                                                     ES
ES

Serial Number
45:5f:3a:e1:5c:21:cd:ba:54:4f:82:aa:47:51:eb:db

Validity
Not Before: Oct 28 11:48:58 2014 GMT
Not After:  Oct 28 11:48:58 2029 GMT

SHA1 Fingerprint
80:8b:72:e4:3b:57:4c:f5:87:7c:b8:41:a8:df:88:39:6d:38:ab:94
MD5 Fingerprint
7a:92:88:1c:9a:ac:47:b4:3a:da:91:ff:da:ea:7e:8a

Certificate Chain Information
   Issued to: AC FNMT Usuarios
    \- Signed by: AC RAIZ FNMT-RCM


Certificate validated without errors
??????????????????++-


Manage Public Certificates (private data replaced with ellipsis)

+++??????????????????
Certificate Information
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certificate Owner                                            Issuer
ROBIN......                                                  AC FNMT Usuarios
ROBIN......                                                  Ceres
CARLOS                                                       FNMT-RCM
IDCES-.....                                                  ES
ES

Serial Number
1b:fd:....

Validity
Not Before: Mar  7 08:37:59 2022 GMT
Not After:  Mar  7 08:37:59 2026 GMT

SHA1 Fingerprint
bd:5e:43:...
MD5 Fingerprint
1b:9a:78:...

Certificate Chain Information
   Issued to: ROBIN...
    \- Signed by: AC FNMT Usuarios
     \- Signed by: AC RAIZ FNMT-RCM


Certificate validated without errors
??????????????????++-


Manage Private Keys
(private data replaced with ellipsis)

+++??????????????????
Certificate Information
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certificate Owner                                            Issuer
ROBIN...                                                     AC FNMT Usuarios
ROBIN...                                                     Ceres
CARLOS                                                       FNMT-RCM
IDCES-...                                                    ES
ES

Serial Number
1b:fd:a4:...

Validity
Not Before: Mar  7 08:37:59 2022 GMT
Not After:  Mar  7 08:37:59 2026 GMT

SHA1 Fingerprint
bd:5e:43:...
MD5 Fingerprint
1b:9a:78:...

Certificate Chain Information
   Issued to: ROBIN...
    \- Signed by: AC FNMT Usuarios
     \- Signed by: AC RAIZ FNMT-RCM


Certificate validated without errors
??????????????????++-


What I don't see is the mail address!


On Thunderbird, it says:

Purposes: E-mail Protection, Client Authentication


>
>>>>   MAIL@ADDRESS.key  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/private/
>>>>   MAIL@ADDRESS.crt  ->   ~/.alpine-smime/public/
>>>>   certificate-ca.crt ->  ~/.alpine-smime/ca/    (is this name correc?)
>>>
>>>  copy MAIL@ADDRESS.crt to ~/.alpine-smime/ca/ also.
>>
>>  Ah. Done. But doesn't help.
>
> Have you run alpine with debug to see what more information you can get out 
> of the debug?

No, I'm unsure what debug options to use.



>>>  Do you mind sharing "ls -lR ~/.alpine-smime" with me if this does not
>>>  work?
>>
>>  Sure, will mail that in private after this mail.
>
>
> Thank you. I got it. It all looks good.

Ok.


>>  Thanks, but still not there...
>>
>>  For the record, it fails also in Thunderbird, but in Alpine I don't know
>>  yet if I have it configured properly.
>
> Yes, your Alpine is configured correctly. All your permissions are set 
> correctly. Although your certificates have information in them that is not 
> part of the key or certificate, that information does not matter because it 
> is ignored when the certificate is processed, so I am not sure what your 
> problem is.

Ok, that's what I needed to know :-)



>
>>  same error code as this bug:
>>  <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1756413>
>>  It seems RSA-PSS certificates are not supported.
>>
>>  There's also this:
>>  <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1364339>
>
> Not my expertise here, but reading man pages, it looks like RSA-PSS uses 
> pkcs#8, while s/mime uses pkcs#7.
>
> https://www.openssl.org/docs/man1.1.1/man7/RSA-PSS.html
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKCS
>
> I can't imagine these are good news for you. Let me interpret this in a 
> different way. It looks like the purpose of your certificate is not for 
> s/mime, hence it is not surprising it fails. Since I am not the expert here, 
> I'd love to be corrected.

I have no idea.

I don't use this even every year. I used a certificate from this entity 
maybe a decade ago with Thunderbird and it worked. It has to be renewed 
periodically, so the current incantation is different, and Thunderbird is 
different. So I wanted to try Alpine being different software- Knowing 
that it is properly configured, if it gives an apparently similar error 
indicates that the certificate doesn't work.

And today I have noticed that my email is not listed in the certificate, 
despite me asking for it. That could be the reason.


I guess that the error messages from these libraries are not very 
informative for the layman.


I can try to get another certificate from another entity for email. I'm 
open to suggestions, but the reason I wanted to use this official 
certificate is that it includes our National Identification Number, which 
is used in many procedures, and identity is verified by an official in an 
interview. It is used on the web for tax purposes, so it has to be 
verifiable.

But for some reason, my email is not listed in it.


- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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DqDvI84rAKCCzVKZy7jWPx9ABFosjP8MFugTWg==
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From alpine.chappa at yandex.com  Sun Nov 19 12:10:44 2023
From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME.
In-Reply-To: <9b1937fb-7603-097b-fbd4-8f51ed661238@telefonica.net>
References: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
	<e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>
	<da37e13e-c7b4-923f-3101-00664ce74cb0@telefonica.net>
	<ff263d30-e0ed-915e-b3ab-f5f139d2305c@yandex.com>
	<a82bbd0e-5f4e-c46a-31f4-a8925ba9f468@telefonica.net>
	<df9a2928-ee2a-01a0-de86-488444c2595e@yandex.com>
	<9b1937fb-7603-097b-fbd4-8f51ed661238@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <2c939e10-6577-66e2-9cec-e46892aae9b3@yandex.com>

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> And today I have noticed that my email is not listed in the certificate, 
> despite me asking for it. That could be the reason.

That is certainly relevant. S/MIME certificates are meant to verify the 
email address, not people. Sure, you can verify people besides email 
addresses, but the only thing that you can reliably certify is the email 
address in a S/MIME message. I think you should pursue that line.

-- 
Eduardo

From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Sun Nov 19 12:46:37 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Signing with S/MIME. [SOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <2c939e10-6577-66e2-9cec-e46892aae9b3@yandex.com>
References: <dc27b118-852d-4b26-2584-f0fc4f8bc641@telefonica.net>
	<e5f3c7bc-f87b-b8ae-bf87-868959c77ca0@yandex.com>
	<da37e13e-c7b4-923f-3101-00664ce74cb0@telefonica.net>
	<ff263d30-e0ed-915e-b3ab-f5f139d2305c@yandex.com>
	<a82bbd0e-5f4e-c46a-31f4-a8925ba9f468@telefonica.net>
	<df9a2928-ee2a-01a0-de86-488444c2595e@yandex.com>
	<9b1937fb-7603-097b-fbd4-8f51ed661238@telefonica.net>
	<2c939e10-6577-66e2-9cec-e46892aae9b3@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <e6ce5be4-e3a4-4ec6-bb91-7e5e8b76244d@telefonica.net>

On 2023-11-19 21:10, Eduardo Chappa wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> 
>> And today I have noticed that my email is not listed in the 
>> certificate, despite me asking for it. That could be the reason.
> 
> That is certainly relevant. S/MIME certificates are meant to verify the 
> email address, not people. Sure, you can verify people besides email 
> addresses, but the only thing that you can reliably certify is the email 
> address in a S/MIME message. I think you should pursue that line.
> 

Will Alpine fail to find a certificate if inside it doesn't tell the 
mail address?


Well, the chaps at
snews://news.individual.net/alt.comp.software.thunderbird

tell me that the problem is the missing mail address in the certificate. 
Sigh. I remember filling the forms with the email address, yet the 
government officials did not include it :-/


Pity the library doesn't spell out the true problem. The certificate 
manager at Thunderbird should tell so.

-- 
Cheers / Saludos,

		Carlos E. R.

   (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 23 19:48:51 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] folders and certificate placement?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311232244210.3627207@users.shellworld.net>

Hi all,
One of the members of the greater Toronto Linux users group is creating an 
email  account on their personal email servers.
They have never used alpine before, asking me a couple of questions.
since Imap is going to be involved, what setting tells alpine to place say 
the sent mail folder there, or anywhere?
Ron is asking about certificate placement too, they are good, but again 
alpine is unhappy with them, perhaps another placement issue?
are there things that cannot be set from the settings area of the main 
menu, needing a config?
If so, what is it called?
Thanks,
Karen



From klewellen at shellworld.net  Sun Nov 26 13:26:47 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>

Currently uses alpine to access their gmail account.
A bit of context
I experience sight loss, with basic html my only direct access to my gmail 
account..which has been removed as of last Monday.
I use my gmail account personally and professionally, its lost is quite 
quite quite a situation for me.
There is an associate in Toronto who is aiming to provide an email setup, 
configuring alpine to access gmail, but he has never configured alpine 
before.
As I experience sight loss, and have only accessed my gmail account via 
the web interface, I  need to
1, be sure what I am told should happen here incorporating imap is what I 
expect,
and 2, insure my associate has correct information, all of my alpine 
access is via dreamhost, and they do not configure alpine well.
My associate is using Alpine 2.5, which I recall has a tool that allows 
one to authenticate to gmail,  but I am seeking someone with direct 
experience so this gets done  to the best of Alpine's ability.
If you are personally doing this, Can you please write me off list?
I absolutely positively do not have the emotional capacity to gamble here, 
hoping to connect Ron with someone who knows what they are doing.
klewellen@shellworld.net
thanks,
Kare



From bret at busby.net  Sun Nov 26 13:41:26 2023
From: bret at busby.net (Bret Busby)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <9187ae4f-0c39-71e2-ea1a-a1b14ad4b25a@busby.net>

On 27/11/23 05:26, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> Currently uses alpine to access their gmail account.
> A bit of context
> I experience sight loss, with basic html my only direct access to my 
> gmail account..which has been removed as of last Monday.
> I use my gmail account personally and professionally, its lost is quite 
> quite quite a situation for me.
> There is an associate in Toronto who is aiming to provide an email 
> setup, configuring alpine to access gmail, but he has never configured 
> alpine before.
> As I experience sight loss, and have only accessed my gmail account via 
> the web interface, I? need to
> 1, be sure what I am told should happen here incorporating imap is what 
> I expect,
> and 2, insure my associate has correct information, all of my alpine 
> access is via dreamhost, and they do not configure alpine well.
> My associate is using Alpine 2.5, which I recall has a tool that allows 
> one to authenticate to gmail,? but I am seeking someone with direct 
> experience so this gets done? to the best of Alpine's ability.
> If you are personally doing this, Can you please write me off list?
> I absolutely positively do not have the emotional capacity to gamble 
> here, hoping to connect Ron with someone who knows what they are doing.
> klewellen@shellworld.net
> thanks,
> Kare
> 
> 

Thank you for that message.

I had not accessed my gmail account for a while, so, was not aware of 
the elimination of the basic HTML option.

It is apparently part of the increasing gratuitous bastardy of the 
script kiddies sabotaging ICT, so as to malignantly make ICT less 
usable, and less productive.

Consequently, it seems that my days of using gmail, have come and gone, 
with gmail now just another borg thing, to be avoided.

....
Bret Busby
Armadale
Western Australia
(UTC+0800)
.................


From klewellen at shellworld.net  Sun Nov 26 13:52:25 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <9187ae4f-0c39-71e2-ea1a-a1b14ad4b25a@busby.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<9187ae4f-0c39-71e2-ea1a-a1b14ad4b25a@busby.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261649340.3669744@users.shellworld.net>

..this addresses my personal situation how exactly?
I have enough folks from the not monitored google accessibility list 
telling me to be disabled as google defines the term.
I respect you can move on, for me, at  least where years of personal, 
professional and legal content is concerned,  I need a door.
alpine is  able to provide one as I understand it.



On Mon, 27 Nov 2023, Bret Busby wrote:

> On 27/11/23 05:26, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>  Currently uses alpine to access their gmail account.
>>  A bit of context
>>  I experience sight loss, with basic html my only direct access to my gmail
>>  account..which has been removed as of last Monday.
>>  I use my gmail account personally and professionally, its lost is quite
>>  quite quite a situation for me.
>>  There is an associate in Toronto who is aiming to provide an email setup,
>>  configuring alpine to access gmail, but he has never configured alpine
>>  before.
>>  As I experience sight loss, and have only accessed my gmail account via
>>  the web interface, I? need to
>>  1, be sure what I am told should happen here incorporating imap is what I
>>  expect,
>>  and 2, insure my associate has correct information, all of my alpine
>>  access is via dreamhost, and they do not configure alpine well.
>>  My associate is using Alpine 2.5, which I recall has a tool that allows
>>  one to authenticate to gmail,? but I am seeking someone with direct
>>  experience so this gets done? to the best of Alpine's ability.
>>  If you are personally doing this, Can you please write me off list?
>>  I absolutely positively do not have the emotional capacity to gamble here,
>>  hoping to connect Ron with someone who knows what they are doing.
>>  klewellen@shellworld.net
>>  thanks,
>>  Kare
>>
>> 
>
> Thank you for that message.
>
> I had not accessed my gmail account for a while, so, was not aware of the 
> elimination of the basic HTML option.
>
> It is apparently part of the increasing gratuitous bastardy of the script 
> kiddies sabotaging ICT, so as to malignantly make ICT less usable, and less 
> productive.
>
> Consequently, it seems that my days of using gmail, have come and gone, with 
> gmail now just another borg thing, to be avoided.
>
> ....
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> Western Australia
> (UTC+0800)
> .................
>
> _______________________________________________
> Alpine-info mailing list
> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
>
>
From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Sun Nov 26 13:57:17 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



El 2023-11-26 a las 16:26 -0500, Karen Lewellen escribi?:

> Currently uses alpine to access their gmail account.
> A bit of context
> I experience sight loss, with basic html my only direct access to my gmail 
> account..which has been removed as of last Monday.
> I use my gmail account personally and professionally, its lost is quite quite 
> quite a situation for me.
> There is an associate in Toronto who is aiming to provide an email setup, 
> configuring alpine to access gmail, but he has never configured alpine 
> before.
> As I experience sight loss, and have only accessed my gmail account via the 
> web interface, I  need to
> 1, be sure what I am told should happen here incorporating imap is what I 
> expect,
> and 2, insure my associate has correct information, all of my alpine access 
> is via dreamhost, and they do not configure alpine well.
> My associate is using Alpine 2.5, which I recall has a tool that allows one 
> to authenticate to gmail,  but I am seeking someone with direct experience so 
> this gets done  to the best of Alpine's ability.
> If you are personally doing this, Can you please write me off list?
> I absolutely positively do not have the emotional capacity to gamble here, 
> hoping to connect Ron with someone who knows what they are doing.
> klewellen@shellworld.net
> thanks,

I use Alpine to receive or read email (for sending I use Postfix in my 
Linux machine). I am on version 2.26, so I'm confused by you claiming you 
use version 2.5


I do access gmail account, but perhaps not the way you are thinking off.

I do not now how to write a step by step howto, sorry.

The first step is to get an Application Password.


<https://support.google.com/mail/answer/185833?hl=en>

Create & use app passwords

     Go to your Google Account.
     Select Security.
     Under "Signing in to Google," select 2-Step Verification.
     At the bottom of the page, select App passwords.
     Enter a name that helps you remember where you'll use the app password.
     Select Generate.

<https://www.zdnet.com/article/gmail-app-passwords-what-they-are-how-to-create-one-and-why-to-use-them/>


Once you have such a password, you can add the mail account in Alpine and 
just give that application password when asked.

This is a sample configuration:

         "Gmail" {imap.gmail.com/ssl/user=YOURACCOUNT@gmail.com}INBOX


This way you do not have to use OAuth2, which is a complication.

The sending part I don't know how to handle in Alpine (because I do it 
using a Linux system daemon), but the trick is giving it the application 
password.

HTH, and others may fill in the holes.

- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZWO/PRwccm9iaW4ubGlz
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From n1ea at arrl.net  Sun Nov 26 14:10:55 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>

Carlos E. R. sent this but the web interface for gmail choked on his
message because he signed it with pgp.

To work, application specific passwords are necessary for both mutt and
alpine, Carlos E.R. explains how to get these, however mutt has the ability
to use oauth credentials which alpine doesn't seem to have yet.  Many
people have gone over to mutt for this reason.

Here's what Carlos E. R. sent:

I use Alpine to receive or read email (for sending I use Postfix in my
Linux machine). I am on version 2.26, so I'm confused by you claiming you
use version 2.5


I do access gmail account, but perhaps not the way you are thinking off.

I do not now how to write a step by step howto, sorry.

The first step is to get an Application Password.


<https://support.google.com/mail/answer/185833?hl=en>

Create & use app passwords

     Go to your Google Account.
     Select Security.
     Under "Signing in to Google," select 2-Step Verification.
     At the bottom of the page, select App passwords.
     Enter a name that helps you remember where you'll use the app password.
     Select Generate.

<
https://www.zdnet.com/article/gmail-app-passwords-what-they-are-how-to-create-one-and-why-to-use-them/
>


Once you have such a password, you can add the mail account in Alpine and
just give that application password when asked.

This is a sample configuration:

         "Gmail" {imap.gmail.com/ssl/user=YOURACCOUNT@gmail.com}INBOX


This way you do not have to use OAuth2, which is a complication.

The sending part I don't know how to handle in Alpine (because I do it
using a Linux system daemon), but the trick is giving it the application
password.

HTH, and others may fill in the holes.

- --
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

On Sun, Nov 26, 2023 at 4:57?PM Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> El 2023-11-26 a las 16:26 -0500, Karen Lewellen escribi?:
>
> > Currently uses alpine to access their gmail account.
> > A bit of context
> > I experience sight loss, with basic html my only direct access to my
> gmail
> > account..which has been removed as of last Monday.
> > I use my gmail account personally and professionally, its lost is quite
> quite
> > quite a situation for me.
> > There is an associate in Toronto who is aiming to provide an email
> setup,
> > configuring alpine to access gmail, but he has never configured alpine
> > before.
> > As I experience sight loss, and have only accessed my gmail account via
> the
> > web interface, I  need to
> > 1, be sure what I am told should happen here incorporating imap is what
> I
> > expect,
> > and 2, insure my associate has correct information, all of my alpine
> access
> > is via dreamhost, and they do not configure alpine well.
> > My associate is using Alpine 2.5, which I recall has a tool that allows
> one
> > to authenticate to gmail,  but I am seeking someone with direct
> experience so
> > this gets done  to the best of Alpine's ability.
> > If you are personally doing this, Can you please write me off list?
> > I absolutely positively do not have the emotional capacity to gamble
> here,
> > hoping to connect Ron with someone who knows what they are doing.
> > klewellen@shellworld.net
> > thanks,
>
> I use Alpine to receive or read email (for sending I use Postfix in my
> Linux machine). I am on version 2.26, so I'm confused by you claiming you
> use version 2.5
>
>
> I do access gmail account, but perhaps not the way you are thinking off.
>
> I do not now how to write a step by step howto, sorry.
>
> The first step is to get an Application Password.
>
>
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/185833?hl=en>
>
> Create & use app passwords
>
>      Go to your Google Account.
>      Select Security.
>      Under "Signing in to Google," select 2-Step Verification.
>      At the bottom of the page, select App passwords.
>      Enter a name that helps you remember where you'll use the app
> password.
>      Select Generate.
>
> <
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/gmail-app-passwords-what-they-are-how-to-create-one-and-why-to-use-them/
> >
>
>
> Once you have such a password, you can add the mail account in Alpine and
> just give that application password when asked.
>
> This is a sample configuration:
>
>          "Gmail" {imap.gmail.com/ssl/user=YOURACCOUNT@gmail.com}INBOX
> <http://imap.gmail.com/ssl/user=YOURACCOUNT@gmail.com%7DINBOX>
>
>
> This way you do not have to use OAuth2, which is a complication.
>
> The sending part I don't know how to handle in Alpine (because I do it
> using a Linux system daemon), but the trick is giving it the application
> password.
>
> HTH, and others may fill in the holes.
>
> - --
> Cheers
>         Carlos E. R.
>
>         (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZWO/PRwccm9iaW4ubGlz
> dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVx9cAnj8Nbe8wzwlwMTkz3E53
> kq6vXWV2AJwOHe/LHc42UmDSWA/8PQEC6p5KPA==
> =bA6J
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----_______________________________________________
> Alpine-info mailing list
> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
>
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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Sun Nov 26 14:16:30 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261712420.3669744@users.shellworld.net>

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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Sun Nov 26 14:22:07 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261718220.3669744@users.shellworld.net>

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From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Sun Nov 26 16:10:33 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <354345c0-276e-d358-6f8a-9cef2e0c1ea1@telefonica.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



El 2023-11-26 a las 17:10 -0500, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. escribi?:

> Carlos E. R. sent this but the web interface for gmail choked on his message because he signed it with pgp.
> 
> To work, application specific passwords are necessary for both mutt and alpine, Carlos E.R. explains how to get these,
> however mutt has the ability to use oauth credentials which alpine doesn't seem to have yet.? Many people have gone
> over to mutt for this reason.

AFAIK, Alpine supports Oauth2, but I prefer not to do it.

- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Sun Nov 26 16:13:26 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261718220.3669744@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261718220.3669744@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <f1a60930-88c6-66cc-0b26-f379f94be883@telefonica.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



El 2023-11-26 a las 17:22 -0500, Karen Lewellen escribi?:

> sorry, it should be 2.25, I assume it is what Ubuntu 22 provides.
> As for email out, I suppose you mean you are using Mutt to send email as if 
> from your gmail address?
> Although the shell service I access, shellworld.net, and dreamhost, both 
> provide mutt, again, I have absolute zero skills in configuring the programs, 
> if mutt is a better solution for Ron to use than alpine, I will reference it.

Mutt was known as Alpine on steroids, it has many more options and thus is 
more complex.

- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
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From n1ea at arrl.net  Sun Nov 26 16:17:26 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <f1a60930-88c6-66cc-0b26-f379f94be883@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261718220.3669744@users.shellworld.net>
	<f1a60930-88c6-66cc-0b26-f379f94be883@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <CADO5Rbh3dv2aOu=jy_xGfFXc6k81YYUbfzQZwV2uSOYR0NZinw@mail.gmail.com>

I find alpine does more and that mutt is easier to use.

I like alpine best though.

DR

On Sun, Nov 26, 2023, 7:13 PM Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> El 2023-11-26 a las 17:22 -0500, Karen Lewellen escribi?:
>
> > sorry, it should be 2.25, I assume it is what Ubuntu 22 provides.
> > As for email out, I suppose you mean you are using Mutt to send email as
> if
> > from your gmail address?
> > Although the shell service I access, shellworld.net, and dreamhost,
> both
> > provide mutt, again, I have absolute zero skills in configuring the
> programs,
> > if mutt is a better solution for Ron to use than alpine, I will
> reference it.
>
> Mutt was known as Alpine on steroids, it has many more options and thus is
> more complex.
>
> - --
> Cheers
>         Carlos E. R.
>
>         (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> OFv1mZ5PAJ0fZPFRMaVzOOTys5WWgrH9aHBpyQ==
> =xYkD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----_______________________________________________
> Alpine-info mailing list
> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
>
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From schamane at fam.tuwien.ac.at  Sun Nov 26 16:17:45 2023
From: schamane at fam.tuwien.ac.at (Andreas Schamanek)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <f1a60930-88c6-66cc-0b26-f379f94be883@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261718220.3669744@users.shellworld.net>
	<f1a60930-88c6-66cc-0b26-f379f94be883@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <4c3aeda6-f6e8-e4aa-e536-d78712c99eba@fam.tuwien.ac.at>


I can't help with details right now but I wanted to point out that the 
official documentation at 
https://alpineapp.email/alpine/alpine-info/misc/xoauth2.html has 
instructions for Gmail.

-- 
-- Andreas

      :-)


From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Sun Nov 26 16:18:35 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261712420.3669744@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261712420.3669744@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <3731a140-6229-07c8-f512-eee98ce73474@telefonica.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



El 2023-11-26 a las 17:16 -0500, Karen Lewellen escribi?:

> Hi Carlos,
> The person building this solution for me uses Linux as well,  Ubuntu 22 plus 
> in fact.

Ah, ok.

> My guess will be it is the alpine associated with that edition of Ubuntu.
> What will be happening is that I will ssh into the provided Ubuntu door 
> finding alpine and using things there.
> it seems?

Right.

> That once one goes through these steps you can use alpine to present the 
> contents of your gmail inbox?

Yes.

> sending is less of a goal, via gmail at least if that makes sense.

If that person is familiar with Linux and postfix, he can configure it to 
send email using another Gmail application password.

Or wait for someone to come around on this list who knows how to make 
alpine send email directly on gmail.

- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
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From alpine.chappa at yandex.com  Sun Nov 26 22:33:06 2023
From: alpine.chappa at yandex.com (Eduardo Chappa)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> To work, application specific passwords are necessary for both mutt and 
> alpine, Carlos E.R. explains how to get these, however mutt has the 
> ability to use oauth credentials which alpine doesn't seem to have yet.? 
> Many people have gone over to mutt for this reason.

oauth is deprecated, because it is insecure and Alpine never supported it. 
Alpine supports oauth2, which is widely deployed. You can login to Gmail, 
Outlook, Yahoo!, and Yandex using Alpine.

Google requires users of mutt and alpine to get their own client-id and 
client-secret, so we are in equal footing there.

For outlook, Alpine uses a universal client-id and client-secret for the 
device method, and users choose to use Thunderbird's client-id and 
client-secret for the authorize method. Mutt users also seem to be using 
Thunderbird's id and secret. No difference there.

For Yahoo!, alpine uses a device-like method, and I do not think mutt 
users can use mutt to read their Yahoo! email, but that might be my 
ignorance.

For Yandex, users can use the given id and secret and do not need to get 
their own. Mutt users probably need to do that.

Alpine has had oauth2 support for years now. Feel free to spread the news 
as you see fit, or do a search in your favorite search engine for "xoauth2 
alpine" to find how to configure it to login to the above named sites.

I hope this helps.

-- 
Eduardo
From n1ea at arrl.net  Mon Nov 27 04:29:32 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>

Could how to configure oauth2 be added to the README file of alpine
current?

Regards,

David

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 1:33 AM Eduardo Chappa <alpine.chappa@yandex.com>
wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>
> > To work, application specific passwords are necessary for both mutt and
> > alpine, Carlos E.R. explains how to get these, however mutt has the
> > ability to use oauth credentials which alpine doesn't seem to have yet.
> > Many people have gone over to mutt for this reason.
>
> oauth is deprecated, because it is insecure and Alpine never supported it.
> Alpine supports oauth2, which is widely deployed. You can login to Gmail,
> Outlook, Yahoo!, and Yandex using Alpine.
>
> Google requires users of mutt and alpine to get their own client-id and
> client-secret, so we are in equal footing there.
>
> For outlook, Alpine uses a universal client-id and client-secret for the
> device method, and users choose to use Thunderbird's client-id and
> client-secret for the authorize method. Mutt users also seem to be using
> Thunderbird's id and secret. No difference there.
>
> For Yahoo!, alpine uses a device-like method, and I do not think mutt
> users can use mutt to read their Yahoo! email, but that might be my
> ignorance.
>
> For Yandex, users can use the given id and secret and do not need to get
> their own. Mutt users probably need to do that.
>
> Alpine has had oauth2 support for years now. Feel free to spread the news
> as you see fit, or do a search in your favorite search engine for "xoauth2
> alpine" to find how to configure it to login to the above named sites.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> --
> Eduardo
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From n1ea at arrl.net  Wed Nov 29 09:54:52 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>

I found the information, there's a new website unknown to me.
https://alpineapp.email/

Maybe put that URL in the README file. I am using an old version to avoid
the alpine password requirements. I suggest an override when compiling to
avoid it's use, some of us just use alpine in our homes, no hackers have
access to any files. --no-passwords perhaps?

Thanks, EC.

Best wishes,
DR

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 7:29?AM D.J.J. Ring, Jr. <n1ea@arrl.net> wrote:

> Could how to configure oauth2 be added to the README file of alpine
> current?
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 1:33 AM Eduardo Chappa <alpine.chappa@yandex.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>>
>> > To work, application specific passwords are necessary for both mutt and
>> > alpine, Carlos E.R. explains how to get these, however mutt has the
>> > ability to use oauth credentials which alpine doesn't seem to have
>> yet.
>> > Many people have gone over to mutt for this reason.
>>
>> oauth is deprecated, because it is insecure and Alpine never supported
>> it.
>> Alpine supports oauth2, which is widely deployed. You can login to Gmail,
>> Outlook, Yahoo!, and Yandex using Alpine.
>>
>> Google requires users of mutt and alpine to get their own client-id and
>> client-secret, so we are in equal footing there.
>>
>> For outlook, Alpine uses a universal client-id and client-secret for the
>> device method, and users choose to use Thunderbird's client-id and
>> client-secret for the authorize method. Mutt users also seem to be using
>> Thunderbird's id and secret. No difference there.
>>
>> For Yahoo!, alpine uses a device-like method, and I do not think mutt
>> users can use mutt to read their Yahoo! email, but that might be my
>> ignorance.
>>
>> For Yandex, users can use the given id and secret and do not need to get
>> their own. Mutt users probably need to do that.
>>
>> Alpine has had oauth2 support for years now. Feel free to spread the news
>> as you see fit, or do a search in your favorite search engine for
>> "xoauth2
>> alpine" to find how to configure it to login to the above named sites.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> --
>> Eduardo
>
>
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From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Wed Nov 29 11:14:15 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>

On 2023-11-29 18:54, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> I found the information, there's a new website unknown to me.
> https://alpineapp.email/ <https://alpineapp.email/>
> 
> Maybe put that URL in the README file. I am using an old version to 
> avoid the alpine password requirements. I suggest an override when 
> compiling to avoid it's use, some of us just use alpine in our homes, no 
> hackers have access to any files. --no-passwords perhaps?

There is a procedure to disable asking for the password, but as I don't 
use it (and will *not* use it), I don't remember it. Intentionally so.

google finds it, though:

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1349401/how-to-remove-the-master-password-for-the-alpine-pine-e-mail-client


https://comp.mail.pine.narkive.com/UcMK4NZG/suppress-master-password-prompt

-- 
Cheers / Saludos,

		Carlos E. R.

   (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Wed Nov 29 12:12:34 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311291510090.3714956@users.shellworld.net>

Hi Carlos,
As i have no intention of turning this off either, I have a quick 
question?
Where does alpine store this password, when it asks to save the password 
for future use?
Have reached the point of getting my app password, but the person doing 
the configuring is encountering an error, even though I am told the 
password   does not expire.
Thanks,
Karen



On Wed, 29 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2023-11-29 18:54, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>>  I found the information, there's a new website unknown to me.
>>  https://alpineapp.email/ <https://alpineapp.email/>
>>
>>  Maybe put that URL in the README file. I am using an old version to avoid
>>  the alpine password requirements. I suggest an override when compiling to
>>  avoid it's use, some of us just use alpine in our homes, no hackers have
>>  access to any files. --no-passwords perhaps?
>
> There is a procedure to disable asking for the password, but as I don't use 
> it (and will *not* use it), I don't remember it. Intentionally so.
>
> google finds it, though:
>
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/1349401/how-to-remove-the-master-password-for-the-alpine-pine-e-mail-client
>
>
> https://comp.mail.pine.narkive.com/UcMK4NZG/suppress-master-password-prompt
>
> -- 
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
> 		Carlos E. R.
>
>  (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
>
>
>

From n1ea at arrl.net  Wed Nov 29 12:15:36 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>

Would you please make this something that a user could opt out of when
configuring alpine from the tar ball?


Many blind users love alpine but with the change with the master password
it completely overwhelms them.

I know how to follow those instructions that Google finds but many blind
alpine users cannot and the procedure for disabling the password is just
too complicated for many blind users who just love alpine and have used it
for many years and just don't want to be forced to use mutt which doesn't
have this roadblocking feature.

It's a wonderful feature for those that want it, but it oppressive to those
who want the previous simplicity and eligance of alpine.

Couldn't this be made into a configuration choice so that the delightful
elegance and simplicity of alpine could be retained for those who desire
it?  Alpine Retro!

Best regards,.
David

On Wed, Nov 29, 2023, 2:15 PM Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>
wrote:

> On 2023-11-29 18:54, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> > I found the information, there's a new website unknown to me.
> > https://alpineapp.email/ <https://alpineapp.email/>
> >
> > Maybe put that URL in the README file. I am using an old version to
> > avoid the alpine password requirements. I suggest an override when
> > compiling to avoid it's use, some of us just use alpine in our homes, no
> > hackers have access to any files. --no-passwords perhaps?
>
> There is a procedure to disable asking for the password, but as I don't
> use it (and will *not* use it), I don't remember it. Intentionally so.
>
> google finds it, though:
>
>
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/1349401/how-to-remove-the-master-password-for-the-alpine-pine-e-mail-client
>
>
> https://comp.mail.pine.narkive.com/UcMK4NZG/suppress-master-password-prompt
>
> --
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
>                 Carlos E. R.
>
>    (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
>
> _______________________________________________
> Alpine-info mailing list
> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
>
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From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Thu Nov 30 03:49:45 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311291510090.3714956@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311291510090.3714956@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <48a9de89-0221-4e89-bcb2-509cdd55c7c8@telefonica.net>

On 2023-11-29 21:12, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> Hi Carlos,
> As i have no intention of turning this off either, I have a quick question?
> Where does alpine store this password, when it asks to save the password 
> for future use?

Encrypted, in ".pinepw", I think.

> Have reached the point of getting my app password, but the person doing 
> the configuring is encountering an error, even though I am told the 
> password?? does not expire.

Tell him to describe the error, perhaps we can help?


-- 
Cheers / Saludos,

		Carlos E. R.

   (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Thu Nov 30 04:00:09 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>

On 2023-11-29 21:15, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> Would you please make this something that a user could opt out of when 
> configuring alpine from the tar ball?

I'm not a developer, so sorry, I can't.


> Many blind users love alpine but with the change with the master 
> password it completely overwhelms them.

Can't they type a simple word, say "john" or a number, like their own 
phone number (thus easy to remember)? :-?

I suppose it doesn't accept an empty string.

Sorry, I don't know what is the difficulty for them to type a password. 
The risk of password theft (and identity replacement) is the same for 
everybody, a real risk.

The problem is that they mistype letters, perhaps, and don't notice?

Then maybe a string like "11111", the first key in the keyboard, 
repeated a number of times. Or "123456" if it doesn't accept it.


The solution would be a different technology. Fingerprint reader, 
perhaps. :-?

-- 
Cheers / Saludos,

		Carlos E. R.

   (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 08:45:34 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>

Simply offering a personal opinion here.
One concern I have reading both the question and the answer is the 
assumption that  there is a uniformed applies to everyone sharing a label 
like blind people  problem.
Typing a complex password is a challenge in general, with finding a 
solution   that benefits everyone equally helpful.
I am far more concerned that google could uniformly remove display 
choices, taking away basic html which helps many populations as well, 
including those who may experience sight loss.
Indeed technology can provide options.  but speaking personally, many who 
lead with generalized terms like blind people have also limited the 
options those sharing that label can use.
If you are not, cannot, or choose not to define your technology approaches 
from   a term I have read from others, a blind elite standpoint, you are 
not a good blind person.
the simple ability to cut and copy the password somewhere else, and place 
that password in the required field would solve the problem.
Of course many lack the keyboard skills, or the lower graphics environment 
that made that possible, or any number of things.
my understanding too is the password simply needs doing once.
choose a master password easy to remember.
Mercy I use the birthday of a person I respect for mine often.
You would be surprised how many people just use a variation on the word 
master password.
Still, my point is assuming a generalized problem rooted in a, again 
speaking personally, nonexistent uniformed experience serves no one.
Kare



On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2023-11-29 21:15, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>>  Would you please make this something that a user could opt out of when
>>  configuring alpine from the tar ball?
>
> I'm not a developer, so sorry, I can't.
>
>
>>  Many blind users love alpine but with the change with the master password
>>  it completely overwhelms them.
>
> Can't they type a simple word, say "john" or a number, like their own phone 
> number (thus easy to remember)? :-?
>
> I suppose it doesn't accept an empty string.
>
> Sorry, I don't know what is the difficulty for them to type a password. The 
> risk of password theft (and identity replacement) is the same for everybody, 
> a real risk.
>
> The problem is that they mistype letters, perhaps, and don't notice?
>
> Then maybe a string like "11111", the first key in the keyboard, repeated a 
> number of times. Or "123456" if it doesn't accept it.
>
>
> The solution would be a different technology. Fingerprint reader, perhaps. 
> :-?
>
> -- 
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
> 		Carlos E. R.
>
>  (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
>
>

From n1ea at arrl.net  Thu Nov 30 09:38:29 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Karen and all,

I am also concerned with loosing Google html search page but one for
duckduckgo.com exists. I include everyone in my message who could benefit
by any changes that increase accessability to all.

Most of the people that I am working with that are having the most problem
are those using console line interface (CLI) and who often never have a
graphical interface (GUI) installed.

Most have changed their email program to mutt but they very much miss the
features available in alpine like its address book and ability to access
newsgroups.

Some would like to use emacs and gnunews (spelling?). That's beyond my
knowledge.

One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to get
an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old
version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed the
way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of their
email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail and inside
there they have to select the folder with the new email.

It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a switch
much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass file.

The default would continue to be as it is now but the user could decide to
use the less secure method of accessing alpine if they wished.

Kind regards,

David Ring




On Thu, Nov 30, 2023, 11:45 AM Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
wrote:

> Simply offering a personal opinion here.
> One concern I have reading both the question and the answer is the
> assumption that  there is a uniformed applies to everyone sharing a label
> like blind people  problem.
> Typing a complex password is a challenge in general, with finding a
> solution   that benefits everyone equally helpful.
> I am far more concerned that google could uniformly remove display
> choices, taking away basic html which helps many populations as well,
> including those who may experience sight loss.
> Indeed technology can provide options.  but speaking personally, many who
> lead with generalized terms like blind people have also limited the
> options those sharing that label can use.
> If you are not, cannot, or choose not to define your technology approaches
> from   a term I have read from others, a blind elite standpoint, you are
> not a good blind person.
> the simple ability to cut and copy the password somewhere else, and place
> that password in the required field would solve the problem.
> Of course many lack the keyboard skills, or the lower graphics environment
> that made that possible, or any number of things.
> my understanding too is the password simply needs doing once.
> choose a master password easy to remember.
> Mercy I use the birthday of a person I respect for mine often.
> You would be surprised how many people just use a variation on the word
> master password.
> Still, my point is assuming a generalized problem rooted in a, again
> speaking personally, nonexistent uniformed experience serves no one.
> Kare
>
>
>
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> > On 2023-11-29 21:15, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> >>  Would you please make this something that a user could opt out of when
> >>  configuring alpine from the tar ball?
> >
> > I'm not a developer, so sorry, I can't.
> >
> >
> >>  Many blind users love alpine but with the change with the master
> password
> >>  it completely overwhelms them.
> >
> > Can't they type a simple word, say "john" or a number, like their own
> phone
> > number (thus easy to remember)? :-?
> >
> > I suppose it doesn't accept an empty string.
> >
> > Sorry, I don't know what is the difficulty for them to type a password.
> The
> > risk of password theft (and identity replacement) is the same for
> everybody,
> > a real risk.
> >
> > The problem is that they mistype letters, perhaps, and don't notice?
> >
> > Then maybe a string like "11111", the first key in the keyboard,
> repeated a
> > number of times. Or "123456" if it doesn't accept it.
> >
> >
> > The solution would be a different technology. Fingerprint reader,
> perhaps.
> > :-?
> >
> > --
> > Cheers / Saludos,
> >
> >               Carlos E. R.
> >
> >  (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Alpine-info mailing list
> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
>
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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 11:03:03 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
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	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301355160.3730482@users.shellworld.net>

Again speaking personally..we can only speak for ourselves after all 
smiles.
You cannot write anything that claims accessibility for all.. because 
there are individual human definitions for what that means.  This is what 
I mean about a blanket label approach..instead of various choices allowing 
an individual  find what they desire to support the body they inhabit 
using the tools they wish.
basic html is an gmail display option, duckduckgo cannot display gmail in 
basic html.
Again speaking personally, it seems those with command line skills, 
something  that varies from person to person would have an easy time 
getting  their password saved, putting that password in alpine, and saving 
it.
Speaking personally gui interfaces are far more of a problem, there 
is little quality support for them across the inclusion spectrum, they 
change on a regular basis, they do not allow for ease with things like 
voice browser navigation and so on.
Imap is indeed a solution, something that alpine can provide.
Kare



On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> Karen and all,
>
> I am also concerned with loosing Google html search page but one for
> duckduckgo.com exists. I include everyone in my message who could benefit
> by any changes that increase accessability to all.
>
> Most of the people that I am working with that are having the most problem
> are those using console line interface (CLI) and who often never have a
> graphical interface (GUI) installed.
>
> Most have changed their email program to mutt but they very much miss the
> features available in alpine like its address book and ability to access
> newsgroups.
>
> Some would like to use emacs and gnunews (spelling?). That's beyond my
> knowledge.
>
> One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to get
> an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old
> version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed the
> way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of their
> email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail and inside
> there they have to select the folder with the new email.
>
> It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a switch
> much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass file.
>
> The default would continue to be as it is now but the user could decide to
> use the less secure method of accessing alpine if they wished.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> David Ring
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2023, 11:45 AM Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Simply offering a personal opinion here.
>> One concern I have reading both the question and the answer is the
>> assumption that  there is a uniformed applies to everyone sharing a label
>> like blind people  problem.
>> Typing a complex password is a challenge in general, with finding a
>> solution   that benefits everyone equally helpful.
>> I am far more concerned that google could uniformly remove display
>> choices, taking away basic html which helps many populations as well,
>> including those who may experience sight loss.
>> Indeed technology can provide options.  but speaking personally, many who
>> lead with generalized terms like blind people have also limited the
>> options those sharing that label can use.
>> If you are not, cannot, or choose not to define your technology approaches
>> from   a term I have read from others, a blind elite standpoint, you are
>> not a good blind person.
>> the simple ability to cut and copy the password somewhere else, and place
>> that password in the required field would solve the problem.
>> Of course many lack the keyboard skills, or the lower graphics environment
>> that made that possible, or any number of things.
>> my understanding too is the password simply needs doing once.
>> choose a master password easy to remember.
>> Mercy I use the birthday of a person I respect for mine often.
>> You would be surprised how many people just use a variation on the word
>> master password.
>> Still, my point is assuming a generalized problem rooted in a, again
>> speaking personally, nonexistent uniformed experience serves no one.
>> Kare
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-11-29 21:15, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>>>>  Would you please make this something that a user could opt out of when
>>>>  configuring alpine from the tar ball?
>>>
>>> I'm not a developer, so sorry, I can't.
>>>
>>>
>>>>  Many blind users love alpine but with the change with the master
>> password
>>>>  it completely overwhelms them.
>>>
>>> Can't they type a simple word, say "john" or a number, like their own
>> phone
>>> number (thus easy to remember)? :-?
>>>
>>> I suppose it doesn't accept an empty string.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I don't know what is the difficulty for them to type a password.
>> The
>>> risk of password theft (and identity replacement) is the same for
>> everybody,
>>> a real risk.
>>>
>>> The problem is that they mistype letters, perhaps, and don't notice?
>>>
>>> Then maybe a string like "11111", the first key in the keyboard,
>> repeated a
>>> number of times. Or "123456" if it doesn't accept it.
>>>
>>>
>>> The solution would be a different technology. Fingerprint reader,
>> perhaps.
>>> :-?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers / Saludos,
>>>
>>>               Carlos E. R.
>>>
>>>  (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Alpine-info mailing list
>> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu
>> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
>>
>

From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Thu Nov 30 11:20:34 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <7e319240-3093-453f-af38-015c9fa6a580@telefonica.net>

On 2023-11-30 17:45, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> Simply offering a personal opinion here.
> One concern I have reading both the question and the answer is the 
> assumption that? there is a uniformed applies to everyone sharing a 
> label like blind people? problem.
> Typing a complex password is a challenge in general, with finding a 
> solution?? that benefits everyone equally helpful.

Ok.

> I am far more concerned that google could uniformly remove display 
> choices, taking away basic html which helps many populations as well, 
> including those who may experience sight loss.

IMHO, you should ask/complain to google about this.

In Spain, there is an official organization for blind people, the ONCE, 
which should undertake this.

> Indeed technology can provide options.? but speaking personally, many 
> who lead with generalized terms like blind people have also limited the 
> options those sharing that label can use.
> If you are not, cannot, or choose not to define your technology 
> approaches from?? a term I have read from others, a blind elite 
> standpoint, you are not a good blind person.
> the simple ability to cut and copy the password somewhere else, and 
> place that password in the required field would solve the problem.

You can do that with Alpine. I do, but I use a graphical environment to 
be able to open the whatever that contains the password data for all 
accounts, select and copy with the mouse, then paste into the alpine 
terminal.

I don't know if you can do that, or you are using a pure text terminal.

There are password storage applications that can paste the password with 
a menu choice or shortcut key. But they run in a graphical environment, 
those I know.

In Linux, you can use the service "gpm" to use the mouse in text mode, 
then copy from one terminal and paste into another. I don't know if you 
can do this.


> Of course many lack the keyboard skills, or the lower graphics 
> environment that made that possible, or any number of things.
> my understanding too is the password simply needs doing once.
> choose a master password easy to remember.

Warning: occasionally there may be some error, and Alpine asks for the 
mail account password again, even if enter the same password saved in 
the password file. Even aborting and restarting Alpine doesn't work, it 
will ask for both the account password and the master password.

There is no option to tell Alpine to try again the stored password.

> Mercy I use the birthday of a person I respect for mine often.
> You would be surprised how many people just use a variation on the word 
> master password.
> Still, my point is assuming a generalized problem rooted in a, again 
> speaking personally, nonexistent uniformed experience serves no one.
> Kare
> 
-- 
Cheers / Saludos,

		Carlos E. R.

   (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From mepstein at illinois.edu  Thu Nov 30 12:11:51 2023
From: mepstein at illinois.edu (Milt Epstein)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <48a9de89-0221-4e89-bcb2-509cdd55c7c8@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
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Message-ID: <73f6031d-1dec-99cb-4428-a03ccac8d06d@illinois.edu>

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2023-11-29 21:12, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> > Hi Carlos,
> > As i have no intention of turning this off either, I have a quick question?
> > Where does alpine store this password, when it asks to save the password for
> > future use?
> 
> Encrypted, in ".pinepw", I think.
[ ... ]

I believe this is a compile-time opton -- using --with_passfile -- and
also comes with a default, depending on what your platform is (mine is
".pine-passfile").  It might also be possible to have it not set at
all (or have it be empty?).  And there might be a command-line option
to tell you what it is set to, I'm not sure.

Milt Epstein
mepstein@illinois.edu

From andrew at aitchison.me.uk  Thu Nov 30 12:29:19 2023
From: andrew at aitchison.me.uk (Andrew C Aitchison)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
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	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473e358c-52f8-486c-d615-adf1ae4f2a7b@aitchison.me.uk>

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a switch
> much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass file.
>
> The default would continue to be as it is now but the user could decide to
> use the less secure method of accessing alpine if they wished.

That would be possible.

However, Eduardo Chappa, who does almost all of the alpine development,
has said that he does not wish to do this (Carlos has already given the
reference 
https://comp.mail.pine.narkive.com/UcMK4NZG/suppress-master-password-prompt
) since it would be a security hole.

Unless Eduardo has changed his mind, or the person or distribution
who built the alpine on your machine disagrees with him, the default 
alpine is not going to have a switch to enable the convenient but
insecure password file.
It would not be hard to write a patch to add such a switch, but anyone
who can apply this patch to alpine could just make alpine work
in "convenient" mode without the switch. This would be a smaller patch.

For a single user machine the smaller patch would be sufficient.
For a multi-user machine, I imagine that the administrator would
not wish to give all their users access to the "insecure" version,
so the switching patch would not be useful.

If there *are* people out there who want either of these patches
*and* can patch and build alpine, then I am willing to write
the patches.

-- 
Andrew C. Aitchison                      Kendal, UK
                    andrew@aitchison.me.uk

From damion.yates at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 12:52:25 2023
From: damion.yates at gmail.com (damion.yates@gmail.com)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> I am also concerned with loosing Google html search page but one for 
> duckduckgo.com exists. I include everyone in my message who could 
> benefit by any changes that increase accessability to all.

Is there some risk this will happen?  I use `lynx google.com` with some 
frequency and it still works.  I've not heard about them trying to 
remove html search.

Full disclosure, I've worked at Google for almost 17 years.  You may be 
pleased to hear that it's full of command line loving UNIX nerds, some of 
whom use alpine though more who use mutt (there are dozens of us!).

We also have blind googlers.

> Most of the people that I am working with that are having the most 
> problem are those using console line interface (CLI) and who often 
> never have a graphical interface (GUI) installed.

I envy you :)

> Most have changed their email program to mutt but they very much miss 
> the features available in alpine like its address book and ability to 
> access newsgroups.

Wait what?  Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is 
misunderstood that should be corrected.  If it's the new master password 
option, can't they live with just a single letter password like "f" ? 
(on a home key so even useful for the blind).  Or can't they blank the 
password using `openssl` as suggested in this thread?

> Some would like to use emacs and gnunews (spelling?). That's beyond my 
> knowledge.

Emacspeak used to be well known for cmdline blind users and gnus tied 
into that giving blind users a good option.  I believe the kludge that 
mutt uses of a helper process for xoauth2 is compatible, but this is 
technically complex.

> One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to get 
> an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old 
> version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed the 
> way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of their 
> email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail and inside 
> there they have to select the folder with the new email.

Enabling xoauth2 is not that complicated, future proof and works 
passwordless with the tokens stored by alpine.  Alpine is better at this 
than mutt.

Enabling ASPs might work now but Google may want to deprecate them in 
future as they have old-style access everything passwords.

The internal mutt and alpine mailing lists at work (I run alpine-users@) 
discussed this when they moved to xoauth2 and we scrambled to solve 
this.

The UI changes in GMail often can be undone in settings, I'm not 
familiar with what you're describing with a change in INBOX.  But I do 
know that the IMAP settings are quite advanced in the various styles you 
can configure for how it works, like only serving the last 1,000 
messages per folder, or how delete/expunge works.

I didn't know about the demise of the plain html version, but sadly 
services which are free have to have some compromises as the world moves 
on.  Email is barely used by younger generations as it was a decade ago, 
screen readers can cope with complicated graphical sites and no longer 
rely on needing older plain html versions.

I suspect 100s of people still using html were costing a lot in SWE 
hours to maintain, vs billions of users using the latest versions they 
keep releasing.

When they broke flowed format text in the last update, I raised a bug 
and it's been mostly ignored for 5 years :(

> It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a 
> switch much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass 
> file.
>
> The default would continue to be as it is now but the user could 
> decide to use the less secure method of accessing alpine if they 
> wished.

TBH I kinda agree that it's sensible to have some master password, pick 
something easy, or learn/hack openssl to resolve this.

  - Damion

From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 13:22:42 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>

Hi, thanks for joining the discussion.
A screen reader at its most basic is a talking monitor.
The reason why w3c.way  states that progressive enhancement design is most 
inclusive is because, much like parts of our body, changing technology that 
largely serves as an extension of or substitution for a bodily function is 
not always feasible.
add that while such tools exist, the cost, training, and configuration is 
not  standard or in some places in the world even available.
voice browsers use basic html I am told, so do braille displays.
It provided a clear and in  order presentation, allowing for ease of 
navigation.
In standard gmail elements are often spoken, out of order, with  confusing 
patterns that sort of thing.
And this is not just a blindness related  problem, working with a small 
screen o a small phone is a problem too.
All the coverage I have read media wise about Google's removal of basic 
html indicates how valuable the choice is for everyone.
Removing choice of how you read your email, how it gets presented?
How has the world moved on from needing options on the table?
I just thought of another population, those  with learning disabilities 
who use highlighters, again in order.  standard does not often present 
well for those tools.
What really made me personally angry?
Google stated to the media that removing basic html would happen in 
January 2024.
Imagine my surprise on November 20th to find my basic html door 
closed..entirely.
I could not even log in, with the body I have using the tools working best 
for the combinations of disabilities I experience to so much as generate 
an app password for Alpine.
That google thinks  the world has moved on is a fit excuse for this change 
is frankly quite reprehensible.
You are not providing adaptive tools, or training..you do not even read 
your own accessibility list.
Kare



On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, damion.yates@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>
>>  I am also concerned with loosing Google html search page but one for
>>  duckduckgo.com exists. I include everyone in my message who could benefit
>>  by any changes that increase accessability to all.
>
> Is there some risk this will happen?  I use `lynx google.com` with some 
> frequency and it still works.  I've not heard about them trying to remove 
> html search.
>
> Full disclosure, I've worked at Google for almost 17 years.  You may be 
> pleased to hear that it's full of command line loving UNIX nerds, some of 
> whom use alpine though more who use mutt (there are dozens of us!).
>
> We also have blind googlers.
>
>>  Most of the people that I am working with that are having the most problem
>>  are those using console line interface (CLI) and who often never have a
>>  graphical interface (GUI) installed.
>
> I envy you :)
>
>>  Most have changed their email program to mutt but they very much miss the
>>  features available in alpine like its address book and ability to access
>>  newsgroups.
>
> Wait what?  Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is 
> misunderstood that should be corrected.  If it's the new master password 
> option, can't they live with just a single letter password like "f" ? (on a 
> home key so even useful for the blind).  Or can't they blank the password 
> using `openssl` as suggested in this thread?
>
>>  Some would like to use emacs and gnunews (spelling?). That's beyond my
>>  knowledge.
>
> Emacspeak used to be well known for cmdline blind users and gnus tied into 
> that giving blind users a good option.  I believe the kludge that mutt uses 
> of a helper process for xoauth2 is compatible, but this is technically 
> complex.
>
>>  One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to get
>>  an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old
>>  version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed
>>  the way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of
>>  their email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail and
>>  inside there they have to select the folder with the new email.
>
> Enabling xoauth2 is not that complicated, future proof and works passwordless 
> with the tokens stored by alpine.  Alpine is better at this than mutt.
>
> Enabling ASPs might work now but Google may want to deprecate them in future 
> as they have old-style access everything passwords.
>
> The internal mutt and alpine mailing lists at work (I run alpine-users@) 
> discussed this when they moved to xoauth2 and we scrambled to solve this.
>
> The UI changes in GMail often can be undone in settings, I'm not familiar 
> with what you're describing with a change in INBOX.  But I do know that the 
> IMAP settings are quite advanced in the various styles you can configure for 
> how it works, like only serving the last 1,000 messages per folder, or how 
> delete/expunge works.
>
> I didn't know about the demise of the plain html version, but sadly services 
> which are free have to have some compromises as the world moves on.  Email is 
> barely used by younger generations as it was a decade ago, screen readers can 
> cope with complicated graphical sites and no longer rely on needing older 
> plain html versions.
>
> I suspect 100s of people still using html were costing a lot in SWE hours to 
> maintain, vs billions of users using the latest versions they keep releasing.
>
> When they broke flowed format text in the last update, I raised a bug and 
> it's been mostly ignored for 5 years :(
>
>>  It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a
>>  switch much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass
>>  file.
>>
>>  The default would continue to be as it is now but the user could decide to
>>  use the less secure method of accessing alpine if they wished.
>
> TBH I kinda agree that it's sensible to have some master password, pick 
> something easy, or learn/hack openssl to resolve this.
>
> - Damion
>

From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Thu Nov 30 13:50:59 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <8eb1f897-52fd-484a-9e69-459b47e03a27@telefonica.net>

On 2023-11-30 22:22, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> Hi, thanks for joining the discussion.
> A screen reader at its most basic is a talking monitor.

I just wondered, couldn't a blind people organization (such as ONCE in 
Spain) design a mail client that works solely with speech? And another 
(or the same one) designed for braille machines?

You know that there are even simpler mail programs than Alpine for text 
mode. For instance, in Linux there is "mailx".

Configuration is not simple, though.

-- 
Cheers / Saludos,

		Carlos E. R.

   (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From n1ea at arrl.net  Thu Nov 30 14:09:24 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <CADO5RbjFv--3N15kMX=DjO7vO=053jKdO9soFBmVn4XOtFP+1A@mail.gmail.com>

Kare,

You say about Google "you do not even read
your own accessibility list."

I didn't know Google had an accessibility list.

What is the name of that list?

I can still access Gmail in html here
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/h/h9cdz101vufd/

But there is a small link at the bottom that says "use web version" that
you have to click on to proceed to the simple html version of Gmail.

Thanks,

David

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023, 4:22 PM Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
wrote:

> That google thinks the world has moved on is a fit excuse for this change

is frankly quite reprehensible.

You are not providing adaptive tools, or training..you do not even read

your own accessibility list.

Kare
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From damion.yates at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 14:24:13 2023
From: damion.yates at gmail.com (damion.yates@gmail.com)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302215570.3272974@pants.lon.corp.google.com>

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> Hi, thanks for joining the discussion.  A screen reader at its most 
> basic is a talking monitor.  The reason why w3c.way  states that 
> progressive enhancement design is most inclusive is because, much like 
> parts of our body, changing technology that largely serves as an 
> extension of or substitution for a bodily function is not always 
> feasible.  add that while such tools exist, the cost, training, and 
> configuration is not standard or in some places in the world even 
> available.

If I understand correctly, you agree more advanced screen readers exist 
but that they're expensive or hard to get?  I personally am a Linux user 
and I very much doubt they'll work unless I'm lucky with `wine`.

I sympathise with the position but as I mentioned before, there are 
costs involved, and solutions provided which are believed to be 
adequate.

> voice browsers use basic html I am told, so do braille displays.  It 
> provided a clear and in  order presentation, allowing for ease of 
> navigation.

I admit I'm not an expert but AIUI there are html5 standards for a11y with tags not even supported by older 
browsers, but that are supported in modern ones with modern screen 
readers.  Those might be Mac/Windows only, mandate a GUI and might be 
expensive.

If it's truly the case that they all prefer plain html sites, this is 
sad and I can add to my todo list an action to try and ping somebody in 
the gmail team...

[snipped]

> Removing choice of how you read your email, how it gets presented?

This is why IMAP is good, and IRC rather than a web based chat app and 
Usenet news in a newsreader.  Again I sympathise and come from this 
world, but free services aren't easy to fund when billions of people 
just want to use Whatsapp and Chrome...

> Google stated to the media that removing basic html would happen in January 
> 2024. 
> Imagine my surprise on November 20th to find my basic html door 
> closed..entirely.

As per the other thread I'm not sure it's actually gone yet.  Also I'll 
try and find somebody to ping when I get to my todo list item.


  - Damion

From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 14:31:02 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <8eb1f897-52fd-484a-9e69-459b47e03a27@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
	<8eb1f897-52fd-484a-9e69-459b47e03a27@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301719120.3733210@users.shellworld.net>

Carlos,
It is the united nations convention  on the rights of people *with 
disabilities*.
not for the blind.
It is the Americans  with *disabilities* act, not the blind.
It is the Ontarian or Manitoba's with *disabilities*  etc.
Inclusion from a computer or website standpoint according to the w3c is 
not about blindness, or tool. It is about interaction.
Does it work with the keyboard for example..here are two such guidelines.

Guideline 4.1 Compatible: Maximize compatibility with current and
future user agents, including assistive technologies.

Guideline 2.1 Keyboard Accessible: Make all functionality
available from a keyboard.

  You are, understandably given  the "we have blind googlers!" statement 
assuming that the hundreds of millions of people on this planet who may 
have  a diagnosis related to sight loss are..all in the dark, all use 
speech,  in short are interchangeable for one another.
and more than that population are entitled to access, what happens if you 
experience paraplegia, or are  dyslexic..that population uses screen 
readers too.
your question assumes that no individual human experience, ability, 
patterns for learning, environment can exist within this population, and 
that is simply not the case.
Odd example, but that is like saying cannot laws about ethnic groups who 
are of Asian heritage simply be applied to those who identify as 
indigenous?
That answer is no.
In fact that is what web content access guidelines are about..keeping 
folks from   focusing on the body, or the disability if you will.
Does that resonate?
Kare


  On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2023-11-30 22:22, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>  Hi, thanks for joining the discussion.
>>  A screen reader at its most basic is a talking monitor.
>
> I just wondered, couldn't a blind people organization (such as ONCE in Spain) 
> design a mail client that works solely with speech? And another (or the same 
> one) designed for braille machines?
>
> You know that there are even simpler mail programs than Alpine for text mode. 
> For instance, in Linux there is "mailx".
>
> Configuration is not simple, though.
>
> -- 
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
> 		Carlos E. R.
>
>  (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))
>
>
>

From chime at hubert-humphrey.com  Thu Nov 30 14:37:27 2023
From: chime at hubert-humphrey.com (Chime Hart)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302215570.3272974@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302215570.3272974@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <ca292da1-2507-1de3-71ea-a6818dc486ad@hubert-humphrey.com>

Hi Damion-and-All: I always figured a large difference in screen-readers with 
many extra options as well as live customer phone support, were related with 
commercial verses free. After all, back in the 90s as I was paying for 
Vocal-Eyes in DOS and JAWS, I could phone-and-get support. But in an 
oped-source free world, its a much larger challenge receiving or asking for 
live support. Sometimes I have had limited success. As an unrelated comment, a 
couple of times today you mention news groups-and-Usenet. An unwelcome surprise 
for me was in 2003 when many of the binaries were posted in yenc, which trn, 
nor Alpine natively support.
Chime


From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 14:37:41 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <CADO5RbjFv--3N15kMX=DjO7vO=053jKdO9soFBmVn4XOtFP+1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbjFv--3N15kMX=DjO7vO=053jKdO9soFBmVn4XOtFP+1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301734340.3733210@users.shellworld.net>

lol..of course you did not.
Unlike some years back the list, is no longer monitored by google staff at 
all.
Unlike say with apple, there is no direct phone google accessibility 
contact either.
In fact the list tends to fall days behind on posts now, no one from google 
reading means spam risks as well.
Kare



On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> Kare,
>
> You say about Google "you do not even read
> your own accessibility list."
>
> I didn't know Google had an accessibility list.
>
> What is the name of that list?
>
> I can still access Gmail in html here
> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/h/h9cdz101vufd/
>
> But there is a small link at the bottom that says "use web version" that
> you have to click on to proceed to the simple html version of Gmail.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2023, 4:22 PM Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> wrote:
>
>> That google thinks the world has moved on is a fit excuse for this change
>
> is frankly quite reprehensible.
>
> You are not providing adaptive tools, or training..you do not even read
>
> your own accessibility list.
>
> Kare
>

From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 14:44:56 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302215570.3272974@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302215570.3272974@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301739320.3733210@users.shellworld.net>

No,
My point is that the screen reader is entirely irrelevant to any 
accessibility  solution, because creating inclusion has absolutely zero to 
do with screen readers.
Basic html is not cost impacting..at all.
It cost more to secure and protect the more graphical infrastructures 
because JavaScript, especially proprietary JavaScript  is a hacker's idea of 
a good time.
Did google ever consider starting to charge for basic html?
Might be surprised how much revenue simplicity would generate.
Kare.



On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, damion.yates@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>>  Hi, thanks for joining the discussion.  A screen reader at its most basic
>>  is a talking monitor.  The reason why w3c.way  states that progressive
>>  enhancement design is most inclusive is because, much like parts of our
>>  body, changing technology that largely serves as an extension of or
>>  substitution for a bodily function is not always feasible.  add that while
>>  such tools exist, the cost, training, and configuration is not standard or
>>  in some places in the world even available.
>
> If I understand correctly, you agree more advanced screen readers exist but 
> that they're expensive or hard to get?  I personally am a Linux user and I 
> very much doubt they'll work unless I'm lucky with `wine`.
>
> I sympathise with the position but as I mentioned before, there are costs 
> involved, and solutions provided which are believed to be adequate.
>
>>  voice browsers use basic html I am told, so do braille displays.  It
>>  provided a clear and in  order presentation, allowing for ease of
>>  navigation.
>
> I admit I'm not an expert but AIUI there are html5 standards for a11y with 
> tags not even supported by older browsers, but that are supported in modern 
> ones with modern screen readers.  Those might be Mac/Windows only, mandate a 
> GUI and might be expensive.
>
> If it's truly the case that they all prefer plain html sites, this is sad and 
> I can add to my todo list an action to try and ping somebody in the gmail 
> team...
>
> [snipped]
>
>>  Removing choice of how you read your email, how it gets presented?
>
> This is why IMAP is good, and IRC rather than a web based chat app and Usenet 
> news in a newsreader.  Again I sympathise and come from this world, but free 
> services aren't easy to fund when billions of people just want to use 
> Whatsapp and Chrome...
>
>>  Google stated to the media that removing basic html would happen in
>>  January 2024. Imagine my surprise on November 20th to find my basic html
>>  door closed..entirely.
>
> As per the other thread I'm not sure it's actually gone yet.  Also I'll try 
> and find somebody to ping when I get to my todo list item.
>
>
> - Damion
>

From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 14:50:58 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <ca292da1-2507-1de3-71ea-a6818dc486ad@hubert-humphrey.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
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	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302215570.3272974@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<ca292da1-2507-1de3-71ea-a6818dc486ad@hubert-humphrey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301746200.3733210@users.shellworld.net>

Chime,
this is a fine  comparison.
as an example, Voiceover is provided free of charge on every single apple 
device on the market..has been for  decades now.
Not only can you call regular apple support and talk about voiceover, but 
apple has a separate phone number for all of its adaptive technologies 
which go beyond a screen reader.
further in many parts of the world, one can make an appointment with an 
apple genus visit an apple store and get adaptive technology support, 
sometimes even training.
Google?  not even close.
And that goes more than double for their paid devices.
Kare



On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Chime Hart wrote:

> Hi Damion-and-All: I always figured a large difference in screen-readers with 
> many extra options as well as live customer phone support, were related with 
> commercial verses free. After all, back in the 90s as I was paying for 
> Vocal-Eyes in DOS and JAWS, I could phone-and-get support. But in an 
> oped-source free world, its a much larger challenge receiving or asking for 
> live support. Sometimes I have had limited success. As an unrelated comment, 
> a couple of times today you mention news groups-and-Usenet. An unwelcome 
> surprise for me was in 2003 when many of the binaries were posted in yenc, 
> which trn, nor Alpine natively support.
> Chime
>
>

From chime at hubert-humphrey.com  Thu Nov 30 15:05:25 2023
From: chime at hubert-humphrey.com (Chime Hart)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301739320.3733210@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302215570.3272974@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301739320.3733210@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <83e796f3-05c5-c649-8356-474c4862cc65@hubert-humphrey.com>

Well, Karen-and-All, quoting a title of a late Gordon Lightfoot song, "If You 
Could Read My Mind" in an ideal World, I wish the law could `force all 
web-sites to work with any-and-all browser, no matter what platform. But 
unfortunately, for more than 17years I can see we are not going to win that 
battle. Does that mean I won't bring it to an attention of a web-site? 
Certainly, but even many of the Linux folks I run in to either work mostly on 
their phones or only with graphical tools. Many years ago, I practicly said 
kiddingly, that there might as well be a countdown clock online until only 
modern graphical access would work.
Chime


From robin.listas at telefonica.net  Thu Nov 30 15:06:25 2023
From: robin.listas at telefonica.net (Carlos E. R.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301719120.3733210@users.shellworld.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
	<8eb1f897-52fd-484a-9e69-459b47e03a27@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301719120.3733210@users.shellworld.net>
Message-ID: <ce46f053-00d8-4a30-95d3-b0fcbcf91e2d@telefonica.net>

On 2023-11-30 23:31, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> Carlos,
> It is the united nations convention? on the rights of people *with 
> disabilities*.
> not for the blind.
> It is the Americans? with *disabilities* act, not the blind.
> It is the Ontarian or Manitoba's with *disabilities*? etc.


I'm sorry, I am not an expert, just a layman on this.

I only know that in Spain, where I live, it is the National Organization 
for the Blind of Spain (ONCE).

I am sorry that I don't understand your needs. I thought you said you 
were blind or nearing so, and I was trying to help.

As I don't know how, I'd better get out.


-- 
Cheers / Saludos,

		Carlos E. R.

   (from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

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From n1ea at arrl.net  Thu Nov 30 15:25:29 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <73f6031d-1dec-99cb-4428-a03ccac8d06d@illinois.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
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	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311291510090.3714956@users.shellworld.net>
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	<73f6031d-1dec-99cb-4428-a03ccac8d06d@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <CADO5RbiGi3M3_jsbOcVdd9biOWz_-yRWeQGv5OpJcTypQQmkgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Milt,

That's not the password that some users are complaining about.

When alpine is first run on a computer it wants a Master Password to run.

It won't acce[t a blank password, and it won't accept a short password
either, so in my irritation I put in "alphabet" and it asked for me to
confirm alphabet so I did.
Now every time i run alpine I have to type that password.

I have alpine compiled with passfile so the first time I opened alpine it
asked if I wanted to store my email password to disk and I answered yes.

Now when I want to check my mail I type alpine, then I type alphabet and
alpine opens up.

I still think it would be wonderful to be able to opt out of the master
password addition with a compile-time option --no-masterpassword or
something like that.

I can see how having such a master password is very valuable to some, but
there are many people who just need a simple text only email client and
alpine works very well with screen readers, the blind console users just
love it, but most don't like the extra step of putting in the master
password.  They just want to get to their mail.

Regards,
David

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 3:12?PM Milt Epstein <mepstein@illinois.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> > On 2023-11-29 21:12, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> > > Hi Carlos,
> > > As i have no intention of turning this off either, I have a quick
> question?
> > > Where does alpine store this password, when it asks to save the
> password for
> > > future use?
> >
> > Encrypted, in ".pinepw", I think.
> [ ... ]
>
> I believe this is a compile-time opton -- using --with_passfile -- and
> also comes with a default, depending on what your platform is (mine is
> ".pine-passfile").  It might also be possible to have it not set at
> all (or have it be empty?).  And there might be a command-line option
> to tell you what it is set to, I'm not sure.
>
> Milt Epstein
> mepstein@illinois.edu
> _______________________________________________
> Alpine-info mailing list
> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu
> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info
>
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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 15:37:53 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <ce46f053-00d8-4a30-95d3-b0fcbcf91e2d@telefonica.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
	<8eb1f897-52fd-484a-9e69-459b47e03a27@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301719120.3733210@users.shellworld.net>
	<ce46f053-00d8-4a30-95d3-b0fcbcf91e2d@telefonica.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301833050.3733937@users.shellworld.net>

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From n1ea at arrl.net  Thu Nov 30 15:43:48 2023
From: n1ea at arrl.net (D.J.J. Ring, Jr.)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <CADO5RbgrBTdmOw+aWPc26Q2LZvzLaQt628FQsOCKD6u3HZSNhw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Damion,

Yes, lynx google.com works but lynx gmail.com does NOT work, it says "use
supported browser".
You cannot use a single letter or blank master password with alpine, I
tried many and finally got frustrated at a small password and entered
"alphabet" and it was accepted.

That's eight letters, I suspect that alpine will allow six letters.

This is for every user, one more password to enter.  It only stops
someone from sitting at someone else's computer and typing in "alpine" and
reading their mail because in addition to the person's email password now
the program is password protected.

I live alone, my cat doesn't read email, she finds it boring.

I will eventually forget my master password or I will go through the
complicated for me process of removing the master password from this
computer. I think certain folders have to be deleted under configuration.

Regards,
David

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 3:52?PM <damion.yates@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
>
> > I am also concerned with loosing Google html search page but one for
> > duckduckgo.com exists. I include everyone in my message who could
> > benefit by any changes that increase accessability to all.
>
> Is there some risk this will happen?  I use `lynx google.com` with some
> frequency and it still works.  I've not heard about them trying to
> remove html search.
>
> Full disclosure, I've worked at Google for almost 17 years.  You may be
> pleased to hear that it's full of command line loving UNIX nerds, some of
> whom use alpine though more who use mutt (there are dozens of us!).
>
> We also have blind googlers.
>
> > Most of the people that I am working with that are having the most
> > problem are those using console line interface (CLI) and who often
> > never have a graphical interface (GUI) installed.
>
> I envy you :)
>
> > Most have changed their email program to mutt but they very much miss
> > the features available in alpine like its address book and ability to
> > access newsgroups.
>
> Wait what?  Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is
> misunderstood that should be corrected.  If it's the new master password
> option, can't they live with just a single letter password like "f" ?
> (on a home key so even useful for the blind).  Or can't they blank the
> password using `openssl` as suggested in this thread?
>
> > Some would like to use emacs and gnunews (spelling?). That's beyond my
> > knowledge.
>
> Emacspeak used to be well known for cmdline blind users and gnus tied
> into that giving blind users a good option.  I believe the kludge that
> mutt uses of a helper process for xoauth2 is compatible, but this is
> technically complex.
>
> > One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to
> get
> > an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old
> > version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed
> the
> > way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of
> their
> > email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail and
> inside
> > there they have to select the folder with the new email.
>
> Enabling xoauth2 is not that complicated, future proof and works
> passwordless with the tokens stored by alpine.  Alpine is better at this
> than mutt.
>
> Enabling ASPs might work now but Google may want to deprecate them in
> future as they have old-style access everything passwords.
>
> The internal mutt and alpine mailing lists at work (I run alpine-users@)
> discussed this when they moved to xoauth2 and we scrambled to solve
> this.
>
> The UI changes in GMail often can be undone in settings, I'm not
> familiar with what you're describing with a change in INBOX.  But I do
> know that the IMAP settings are quite advanced in the various styles you
> can configure for how it works, like only serving the last 1,000
> messages per folder, or how delete/expunge works.
>
> I didn't know about the demise of the plain html version, but sadly
> services which are free have to have some compromises as the world moves
> on.  Email is barely used by younger generations as it was a decade ago,
> screen readers can cope with complicated graphical sites and no longer
> rely on needing older plain html versions.
>
> I suspect 100s of people still using html were costing a lot in SWE
> hours to maintain, vs billions of users using the latest versions they
> keep releasing.
>
> When they broke flowed format text in the last update, I raised a bug
> and it's been mostly ignored for 5 years :(
>
> > It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a
> > switch much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass
> > file.
> >
> > The default would continue to be as it is now but the user could
> > decide to use the less secure method of accessing alpine if they
> > wished.
>
> TBH I kinda agree that it's sensible to have some master password, pick
> something easy, or learn/hack openssl to resolve this.
>
>   - Damion
>
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From klewellen at shellworld.net  Thu Nov 30 16:24:22 2023
From: klewellen at shellworld.net (Karen Lewellen)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <83e796f3-05c5-c649-8356-474c4862cc65@hubert-humphrey.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
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	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301608330.3731995@users.shellworld.net>
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	<83e796f3-05c5-c649-8356-474c4862cc65@hubert-humphrey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301854360.3734366@users.shellworld.net>

chime,
again speaking personally, the laws themselves tend to be just fine.
Where the challenge comes in is  that, in many ways those impacted are 
individuals.  instead of focusing on the laws,  test for function and 
interaction, very well meaning people try to focus on the people instead.
Our "we have blind googlers!"
Imagine if he crowed "we higher Asians! how well that statement would go 
over laughs.
allot of well meaning people, met a single example of  a category and 
decided they spoke for everyone..turning that token encounter into 
software development etc.
And, again speaking personally, many in said population were thankful to 
be at the table.  That person must be like me, so I can belong.
One of the most important  rules Canadian reporters got about Indigenous 
coverage is that  you should not assume that one  person speaks for all 
indigenous people.
absolutely hands down to assume that one person experiencing dyslexia or 
hearing loss or a brain injury or blindness speaks for the entire 
population.  That there is a blindness community or paraplegic community 
with every single member sharing the same needs is wrong too. Do those 
behind such  choices mean well?  sometimes, likely most often.
Does it lead to progress?  that is debatable.  After all, as I understand 
it, much Linux innovation came from folks not finding what they needed in 
windows.  same for Apple.
The laws though?  the ones that specifically say, build with a certain 
basic floor, html, css, then add the fancy stuff on top?  those are fine. 
After all the law says current, not modern.
What is current in India  is equally as important as what is current in 
Wales.
With the web more like concrete, a super highway, built from solid 
stuff..do that and high heels or a scooter can get to the goods.
Final point here.  the co-director of Crip camp, Oscar-nominated film 
about some teens with disabilities starting a movement in the 70's made 
this comment when asking for a ramp at the Academy awards.
Why should anyone have to talk about their body to a stranger to get 
service?
Google staffer crows about  blind googlers while no one from the company 
monitors their accessibility list.
apple produces coda putting an aspect of deaf culture on to the Oscar 
stage.  Microsoft puts a person identifying as blind in a Superbowl 
commercial  about gaming.
How many of those blind googlers show in public facing advertising for the 
company I wonder?
Off her soapbox,
Kare


On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, Chime Hart wrote:

> Well, Karen-and-All, quoting a title of a late Gordon Lightfoot song, "If You 
> Could Read My Mind" in an ideal World, I wish the law could `force all 
> web-sites to work with any-and-all browser, no matter what platform. But 
> unfortunately, for more than 17years I can see we are not going to win that 
> battle. Does that mean I won't bring it to an attention of a web-site? 
> Certainly, but even many of the Linux folks I run in to either work mostly on 
> their phones or only with graphical tools. Many years ago, I practicly said 
> kiddingly, that there might as well be a countdown clock online until only 
> modern graphical access would work.
> Chime
>
>

From damion.yates at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 16:30:55 2023
From: damion.yates at gmail.com (damion.yates@gmail.com)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2312010028180.3287489@pants.lon.corp.google.com>

I mentioned using `openssl` earlier.? The URLs from Carlos earlier in 
the thread, explain that you can use openssl to blank that password and 
then?you don't have to type?anything.

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1349401/how-to-remove-the-master-password-for-the-alpine-pine-e-mail-client

https://comp.mail.pine.narkive.com/UcMK4NZG/suppress-master-password-prompt

Looking at my shell history I can see I did this in June 2021 and never 
looked back.

It's roughly:

```
cd ~/.alpine-smine/.pwd mv MasterPassword.key
MasterPassword.key.orig openssl rsa -in MasterPassword.key.orig -out
MasterPassword.key
```

But review the URLs and maybe read `man openssl` as I might have missed 
something.  I /think/ but I'm not certain, that clearing the files in 
.pwd/ will let you start alpine and get to pick another master password, 
equally deleting the passfile.  But as I don't really want to 
repeat/replicate this right now (I'm still at work and it's gone 
midnight here in London), you're on your own.

  Best wishes,

  - Damion

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

> You cannot use a single letter or blank master password with alpine, I 
> tried many and finally got frustrated at a small password and entered 
> "alphabet" and it was accepted.
> 
> That's eight letters, I suspect that alpine will allow six letters.
> 
> This is for every user, one more password to enter.  It only stops 
> someone from sitting at someone else's computer and typing in "alpine" 
> and reading their mail because in addition to the person's email 
> password now the program is password protected.
> 
> I will eventually forget my master password or I will go through the 
> complicated for me process of removing the master password from this 
> computer. I think certain folders have to be deleted under 
> configuration.
From slitt at troubleshooters.com  Thu Nov 30 17:54:34 2023
From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Alpine IMAP Support: was Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <20231130205434.29620721@mydesk.domain.cxm>

damion.yates@gmail.com said on Thu, 30 Nov 2023 20:52:25 +0000 (GMT)

>On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

>Wait what?  Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is 
>misunderstood that should be corrected.

Is this good IMAP support something new? In 2013, and maybe 2018 and
2020, I tried getting Alpine working, on my Daily Driver Desktop, with
the Dovecot IMAP server on my Daily Driver Desktop. I don't remember
the details, but it pulled up very few of my folders from Dovecot.
Maybe those folders weren't subscribed, but Claws-Mail and Evolution
pulled up the right folders easily.

I'm using Claws-Mail and Evolution, depending on which is having a
problem on a given day. I'd love to add Alpine to my collection of
email clients. 

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 

Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21

From mattack at apple.com  Thu Nov 30 18:09:35 2023
From: mattack at apple.com (Matt Ackeret)
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:17:33 2024
Subject: [Alpine-info] Alpine IMAP Support: was Seeking someone who..?
In-Reply-To: <20231130205434.29620721@mydesk.domain.cxm>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.2311261618030.3668940@users.shellworld.net>
	<0d7b9592-6e0c-ef92-f661-888ae4291330@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5Rbg-2JjU9fc4XbqN0afg5AZvxYjo8538t5xuQqf0ePZ0KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a698b8f7-11e6-9f47-3521-2ca7654846f8@yandex.com>
	<CADO5Rbj4_uwgAvOAXwupWRKrjaq41xhXFLCkyTgLcqwPvf5r3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADO5RbiyeFsuJg_nS-k63Ca3H-PE1v5BinMyacxJqdFVHd4LhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd726b2a-bb24-4d71-ba2a-3c2694fc146e@telefonica.net>
	<CADO5RbgfkxztXWhA1YRwSKFAMFSbb=g4vB11D+FC-gghi_wQuA@mail.gmail.com>
	<c84b1aa2-c722-4418-9ac6-fb56e5ae3601@telefonica.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.2311301134170.3728928@users.shellworld.net>
	<CADO5RbhOMrvn6dCs0q67eAcs6gTQr5Am1W6K9CZ5QoGAssuaaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2311302033190.3229562@pants.lon.corp.google.com>
	<20231130205434.29620721@mydesk.domain.cxm>
Message-ID: <64D50C37-20B2-454F-B7C5-A8EBA9902A24@apple.com>



> On Nov 30, 2023, at 5:54?PM, Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com> wrote:
> 
> damion.yates@gmail.com said on Thu, 30 Nov 2023 20:52:25 +0000 (GMT)
> 
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:
> 
>> Wait what?  Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is 
>> misunderstood that should be corrected.
> 
> Is this good IMAP support something new? In 2013, and maybe 2018 and
> 2020, I tried getting Alpine working, on my Daily Driver Desktop, with
> the Dovecot IMAP server on my Daily Driver Desktop. I don't remember
> the details, but it pulled up very few of my folders from Dovecot.

Wasn't the alpine IMAP support written by Mark Crispin, the inventor of IMAP?


oh wow, it's been longer than I remembered since he passed away.. in 2012.

But did you mention the IMAP problems on this list the previous times you hit them?


and ok, I won't post another message, but will put it here as a PS..  I keep thinking about personal ads with the original subject of this thread ("Seeking someone who..")