[Alpine-info] Seeking someone who..?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi, thanks for joining the discussion.
A screen reader at its most basic is a talking monitor.
The reason why w3c.way  states that progressive enhancement design is most 
inclusive is because, much like parts of our body, changing technology that 
largely serves as an extension of or substitution for a bodily function is 
not always feasible.
add that while such tools exist, the cost, training, and configuration is 
not  standard or in some places in the world even available.
voice browsers use basic html I am told, so do braille displays.
It provided a clear and in  order presentation, allowing for ease of 
navigation.
In standard gmail elements are often spoken, out of order, with  confusing 
patterns that sort of thing.
And this is not just a blindness related  problem, working with a small 
screen o a small phone is a problem too.
All the coverage I have read media wise about Google's removal of basic 
html indicates how valuable the choice is for everyone.
Removing choice of how you read your email, how it gets presented?
How has the world moved on from needing options on the table?
I just thought of another population, those  with learning disabilities 
who use highlighters, again in order.  standard does not often present 
well for those tools.
What really made me personally angry?
Google stated to the media that removing basic html would happen in 
January 2024.
Imagine my surprise on November 20th to find my basic html door 
closed..entirely.
I could not even log in, with the body I have using the tools working best 
for the combinations of disabilities I experience to so much as generate 
an app password for Alpine.
That google thinks  the world has moved on is a fit excuse for this change 
is frankly quite reprehensible.
You are not providing adaptive tools, or training..you do not even read 
your own accessibility list.
Kare



On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, damion.yates at gmail.com wrote:


> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:

>

>>  I am also concerned with loosing Google html search page but one for

>>  duckduckgo.com exists. I include everyone in my message who could benefit

>>  by any changes that increase accessability to all.

>

> Is there some risk this will happen?  I use `lynx google.com` with some 

> frequency and it still works.  I've not heard about them trying to remove 

> html search.

>

> Full disclosure, I've worked at Google for almost 17 years.  You may be 

> pleased to hear that it's full of command line loving UNIX nerds, some of 

> whom use alpine though more who use mutt (there are dozens of us!).

>

> We also have blind googlers.

>

>>  Most of the people that I am working with that are having the most problem

>>  are those using console line interface (CLI) and who often never have a

>>  graphical interface (GUI) installed.

>

> I envy you :)

>

>>  Most have changed their email program to mutt but they very much miss the

>>  features available in alpine like its address book and ability to access

>>  newsgroups.

>

> Wait what?  Alpine has better xoauth2 and IMAP support, if this is 

> misunderstood that should be corrected.  If it's the new master password 

> option, can't they live with just a single letter password like "f" ? (on a 

> home key so even useful for the blind).  Or can't they blank the password 

> using `openssl` as suggested in this thread?

>

>>  Some would like to use emacs and gnunews (spelling?). That's beyond my

>>  knowledge.

>

> Emacspeak used to be well known for cmdline blind users and gnus tied into 

> that giving blind users a good option.  I believe the kludge that mutt uses 

> of a helper process for xoauth2 is compatible, but this is technically 

> complex.

>

>>  One of the problems they are having is with Gmail, they've managed to get

>>  an application specific password, and can use alpine by using an old

>>  version which does not have the master password, but Google has changed

>>  the way email is displayed, what used to be the default was the INBOX of

>>  their email, but now they have to change folders to one labeled Gmail and

>>  inside there they have to select the folder with the new email.

>

> Enabling xoauth2 is not that complicated, future proof and works passwordless 

> with the tokens stored by alpine.  Alpine is better at this than mutt.

>

> Enabling ASPs might work now but Google may want to deprecate them in future 

> as they have old-style access everything passwords.

>

> The internal mutt and alpine mailing lists at work (I run alpine-users@) 

> discussed this when they moved to xoauth2 and we scrambled to solve this.

>

> The UI changes in GMail often can be undone in settings, I'm not familiar 

> with what you're describing with a change in INBOX.  But I do know that the 

> IMAP settings are quite advanced in the various styles you can configure for 

> how it works, like only serving the last 1,000 messages per folder, or how 

> delete/expunge works.

>

> I didn't know about the demise of the plain html version, but sadly services 

> which are free have to have some compromises as the world moves on.  Email is 

> barely used by younger generations as it was a decade ago, screen readers can 

> cope with complicated graphical sites and no longer rely on needing older 

> plain html versions.

>

> I suspect 100s of people still using html were costing a lot in SWE hours to 

> maintain, vs billions of users using the latest versions they keep releasing.

>

> When they broke flowed format text in the last update, I raised a bug and 

> it's been mostly ignored for 5 years :(

>

>>  It seems that it would be possible when configuring alpine to have a

>>  switch much like the one that creates the ability to use the pinepass

>>  file.

>>

>>  The default would continue to be as it is now but the user could decide to

>>  use the less secure method of accessing alpine if they wished.

>

> TBH I kinda agree that it's sensible to have some master password, pick 

> something easy, or learn/hack openssl to resolve this.

>

> - Damion

>